Poor man's cylinder hone?


17 replies to this topic
  • fear

Posted April 05, 2010 - 06:14 AM

#1

So, I'm about to put the first new piston/rings/etc into my 2005 crf250r.

I also no longer have any of my nice cylinder honing tools.

Assuming there's no significant damage on the walls is there a quick way of breaking the glaze that people have found works ok?

Or should I just take it to a machine shop and have them do it right....?

  • meyermetal

Posted April 05, 2010 - 06:23 AM

#2

Get one of these and some scotch brite pads and your good to go.

Posted Image

  • motodogg01

Posted April 05, 2010 - 06:40 AM

#3

Same type of thing I use as well. I made my own holder/tool but the one me
has shown here would probably work a little better. You can get the scotch britte pad anywhere, works well, cheap.

  • fear

Posted April 05, 2010 - 12:46 PM

#4

Forgive me, maybe it's my lack of sleep but how does 2 washers and what appears to be a nut and bolt make a cylinder hone?

I'm reading about the "red" scotch brite pad?

If I take the pad to the cylinder manually, do I just rub in the same cross-hatch direction as the original markings or does it not matter?

I forgot these have the Nikisil coating... regular hones wouldn't work anyway.

  • moto_x2005

Posted April 05, 2010 - 12:55 PM

#5

Forgive me, maybe it's my lack of sleep but how does 2 washers and what appears to be a nut and bolt make a cylinder hone?

I'm reading about the "red" scotch brite pad?

If I take the pad to the cylinder manually, do I just rub in the same cross-hatch direction as the original markings or does it not matter?

I forgot these have the Nikisil coating... regular hones wouldn't work anyway.


if you do not have a hone a red scotch brite and wd-40 work well to remove the glaze off the cylinder wall.. make sure you try to retrace the original cross-hatch and never go in an "up and down" motion (direction of piston travel) this will not hold oil as well on the wall..

next never use an automotive bar hone, always use a ball or wire brush hone.. you can hone as much as you want on a nikasil cylinder, the hone will wear out way before the nikasil will..

  • meyermetal

Posted April 05, 2010 - 02:05 PM

#6

Forgive me, maybe it's my lack of sleep but how does 2 washers and what appears to be a nut and bolt make a cylinder hone?

I'm reading about the "red" scotch brite pad?

If I take the pad to the cylinder manually, do I just rub in the same cross-hatch direction as the original markings or does it not matter?

I forgot these have the Nikisil coating... regular hones wouldn't work anyway.


you take two rectangular pads and stack them on top of each other making an X. Then you shove the mandrel through the middle sandwiching the scotch brite with the washers. Insert the mandrel in a drill and hone away. I have the brown pads they are a little tougher than the red but any will work.

Posted Image

  • fear

Posted April 05, 2010 - 03:59 PM

#7

sweet... thanks guys.

  • Brad_Aus

Posted April 05, 2010 - 06:46 PM

#8

next never use an automotive bar hone

Reasoning??

To hone anything properly, you need a hone that is straight, round and sized correctly to apply the correct force to the surface. On top of this, you need the correct oil to leave the correct surface finish.

Due to the hardness of nickel silicone carbide, you need a hone with diamond stones..

I guess there are two different ideas about what people with scotch pads are trying to achieve versus people who use an proper honing bar with proper tooling.

People with scotch pads can, at best, scrape a bit of burnt oil film out of the crosshatch, you will never restore the surface finish.. People with diamond tooling, are able to completely restore the bore surface to a fresh finish, and while they are going, they can control taper and ovality (to a very small degree) and also the crosshatch angle and surface finish Ra.

Therefore, I always use a machine shop to clean up my cylinders

  • 1st4stroke41

Posted April 06, 2010 - 04:18 PM

#9

I've used a 3 stone automotive hone, it just can't cut the cylinder. You don't want to anyway.
The last couple bikes I've just cleaned up with water and either scotch brite or some fine sand paper to clean off the carbon.

  • motodogg01

Posted April 06, 2010 - 08:04 PM

#10

Humm, interesting.

Well, I've never used automotive stone hones but mainly because I couldn't fine the right fixture/hone tool to do the job cost effectively enough. I'm not 100% sure if using that style hone is bad for the coating or not.

I can say this, I've used the tool shown here (something just like it... kind of,..) with scotch brite and had great results. Rings seated, had high compression, motor lasted, cheap, easy to find replacement products. I don't know, what more could you want???

I do see Brad_Auss' point, and it makes sense, to a point. And I'm not saying he's wrong, necessarily. However, in this case, if the coating of the cylinder is so tough that it takes "diamond stones" to hone it then why are we so worried about "oveling"? All we should have to do is "clean up the surface", hence the tool/solution talked about here. I mean, if it takes a "diamond stone" hone to clean up the surface then why do we think the aluminum piston is going to oval the wall of that cylinder that bad. This isn't a cast iron Chevy 350 block where such a solution would be warranted. It's a nickle plated cylinder that takes "diamond stone's" to cut with a much shorter stroke. I don't know, I've never needed that solution.....

Also, the request was for a "Poor man's cylinder hone". The above provided solution provides just that. And, sorry to say, but it works great. At least from my experience's.

Edited by motodogg01, April 06, 2010 - 08:20 PM.


  • Brad_Aus

Posted April 06, 2010 - 09:21 PM

#11

However, in this case, if the coating of the cylinder is so tough that it takes "diamond stones" to hone it then why are we so worried about "oveling"? All we should have to do is "clean up the surface", hence the tool/solution talked about here.

I mean, if it takes a "diamond stone" hone to clean up the surface then why do we think the aluminum piston is going to oval the wall of that cylinder that bad. This isn't a cast iron Chevy 350 block where such a solution would be warranted. It's a nickle plated cylinder that takes "diamond stone's" to cut with a much shorter stroke. I don't know, I've never needed that solution.....

You have focused on where I said 'ovality' and didnt see where I wrote 'to a very small degree'.. I said to a very small degree, so as to point out that while there likely is not any ovality, if there is, then a proper hone with set stones will help. I wasnt trying to say your bore will need truing up, but thats why we use proper equipment.

A couple of arguments against what you said, you say you couldnt find cost effective 'poor mans solutions' to your honing needs, well, have you ever enquired with a engine shop to do your honing? here in Aus, I pay between $30 and $44 Aussie dollars for diamond nikasil bore honing. So, youd be looking at $25US maybe over there... IS that not cost effective enough for you?

Another thing, you seem to think that because it takes "Diamond Stones" to hone your bore, that the bore must be invincible to wear, from such non-diamond hard things like an aluminum piston or some iron rings??? You say that since it takes a diamond to hone it, then why will the piston oval the bore??

Have you looked at many 4 stroke bores? Have you noticed the radial grooves worn into the bore at both TDC and BDC from your piston rings dwelling and changing direction on piston rock?? Have you seen scuffing thats enough to wear the original cross hatch away?? It goes to show, thats as hard as the nikasil is, it wears under the conditions it lives in, the piston and rings run over it countless amount of times. And therefore, only a proper hone will restore a bore like that (this is common sight in a YZ250F) You cant have any effect on the crosshatch or ring grooves with a simple scouring pad, but by honing about a quarter thou with a diamond hone, you'll give your bore useable life...

If youd rather save $25, and have a less than restored bore, thats your call, but, remember, the window of opportunity to break a new set of rings in, relies heavily on having a rough scratched up bore surface in the first 15mins of operation, you will never have a nice roughed up bore from a scotch bright pad...

Anyone disagree?

  • condor74

Posted April 06, 2010 - 09:28 PM

#12

I have always used a bead hone to break the glaze when I am installing new rings regardless if it is a motorcycle motor or a big block car engine. The bead hone will give you the cross hatch pattern you desire for ring break in. I have used the 3 stone hones when finish boring a freshly bored cylinder to bring the bore to the exact size.

  • motodogg01

Posted April 07, 2010 - 01:22 AM

#13

So, I'm about to put the first new piston/rings/etc into my 2005 crf250r.

I also no longer have any of my nice cylinder honing tools.

[COLOR="Red"]Assuming there's no significant damage on the walls is there a quick way of breaking the glaze that people have found works ok?[/COLOR]

Or should I just take it to a machine shop and have them do it right....?


You make all good points, Brad_Aus. And I do understand where you're coming from. I think we're just reading the post a little differently. Truth be told. I made my tool from scrape materials laying around my shop. $FREE. Spent .50 cents at the local hardware store for the scotch brite pads. But that besides the point.

The way I read the post was the way I tried to high lite it above. Basically, if the cylinder was in near perfect shape how does a "poor man" take the glaze off the cylinder ways. Your original post states "basically" that this solution wont work on a cylinder thats in near perfect condition (assuming at this point) and that just needs the glaze taken off because it needs diamond stone hones to cut the nickle plating enough to remove the glaze. From my experience's, this is not not what I've found to be true.

He already stated that he had a good hone tool at one time however, it was gone now and was looking for a "poor mans" solution. I'm sure after looking at that tool he came up with a way to make one for free. Again, I'm not sure if running those auto hones are bad or not. I've been told they were bad on the surface and not to use them by one of the techs' at the local Kawasaki shop. Therefore, have always used the solution spoke about here.

  • 1st4stroke41

Posted April 07, 2010 - 03:22 PM

#14

I've read the coating is .001-.003 thousands thick. Your not doing much honing without taking off the coating. If you still have the factory cross hatch pattern, just clean it up and ring it.
I had to hone a yamaha with the auto 3 stone setup to get the right pattern. Said bike has been raced for a year since. No problems.

  • Brad_Aus

Posted April 08, 2010 - 07:06 AM

#15

I present my case.

While this is not a honda, it is a 08 yz250f cylinder, this was honed today by my engine shop.

Now, the cylinder clearly had scuffing and ring wear marks before honing.. but have a look at just how good we can determine the cylinder condition after a hone with a fixed stone hone.. We can clearly see scuffing severity, and determine that the cylinder is ok to go again. Its LESS than ideal, but since its honed, we now know there is no high spots especially where the ring wear is.

IF, we went ahead and had used a toilet brush ball hone on this, it would have masked any high/low spots, and would give a false impression of actual cylinder condition. That scuff patch would have blended in, and so would the ring grooves.. A scourer would have simply cleaned off the oil.

We know that the rings are not going to contact the cylinder where the scuffing is, as the hones have only just skimmed that area, and the ring seal at TDC is also going to be suffering, but we know exactly what to expect from if.

Posted Image

Brad

  • meyermetal

Posted April 08, 2010 - 07:14 AM

#16

I present my case.

While this is not a honda, it is a 08 yz250f cylinder, this was honed today by my engine shop.

Now, the cylinder clearly had scuffing and ring wear marks before honing.. but have a look at just how good we can determine the cylinder condition after a hone with a fixed stone hone.. We can clearly see scuffing severity, and determine that the cylinder is ok to go again. Its LESS than ideal, but since its honed, we now know there is no high spots especially where the ring wear is.

IF, we went ahead and had used a toilet brush ball hone on this, it would have masked any high/low spots, and would give a false impression of actual cylinder condition. That scuff patch would have blended in, and so would the ring grooves.. A scourer would have simply cleaned off the oil.

Posted Image

Brad


I don't think anyone will argue that you are doing it the correct way. What this thread was about was how to do it cheap and in his garage not your properly set up shop.

Swapping out a piston and rings along with cleaning up the cylinder is what most people are doing to maintain their bike. I for one never took my cylinder to get fixed unless it looked broke and my bikes alway ran just fine. But if I had access to a shop such as yours I would probably do it by the book.

  • motodogg01

Posted April 08, 2010 - 07:57 AM

#17

Good write up Brad_Aus!!

I tend to lean towards Meyermetal point regarding "this" post. I think he hit the nail on the head for what this guy was asking about. A cheap solution for a guy trying to do things in his garage.

I would like to add. Brad_Aus, I wasn't trying to challenge your knowledge, experience, or integrity. You are obviously very knowledgeable and wise when talking about these issues. Again, I just think we read the post a little differently. If I have offended you in any way, please accept my apologizes. That was not my intentions.

Now, with that being said. I do have a question. I've been told you can't use these types of hones on these cylinders because on the nickle coatings. This seems to go right in hand with what other folks have posted here as well. No, not all, but some. So, there defiantly seems to be some differentiating opinions. The main reason is because from the factory the coating is so thin and these types of honing tools can lead to "chipping" of the coating. I also been told that sending your cylinder off to someone like "Millennium" here in the states and having them "re-coat"/re-work the cylinder when completed adds a much thicker coating when finished.

So, the question is. Is it acceptable to use these types of hones on these types of coating? When is it acceptable and when is it not? I've always used the solution talked about here and just had to replace cylinders that were out of spects or too damaged. I just figured that the issues talked about here were the nature of the beast. Basically, it wasn't a car engine or a stainless steel sleeve so you just had to deal with what you had or buy a new cylinder, or have yours re-worked. If others are finding not to be the case please explain.

Edited by motodogg01, April 08, 2010 - 08:56 AM.


  • Brad_Aus

Posted April 08, 2010 - 05:27 PM

#18

I absolutely agree that the original point of the thread was asking can a cylinder be cleaned successfully at home.. and sure, you can clean it up good.. But you cant 'hone' it so to speak

What I wanted to do, was take the discussion further, and perhaps put up some information for those people who are a little confused about what the different options offer.

So, I will say this for people who are thinking of going either way.

If you think the cylinder looks to be good, and has a original honing marks all over, you can successfully clean your cylinder with some scotch pad. Even if it has some scuffing, you will be ok..

But, its like everything, you only get out what you put in.

So, if you put more into it by getting a correct hone, you will get a better result with ring break in and oil retention.

The proper way to hone nikasil, is with the tooling ive already mentioned. However, a deglaze hone will only take the smallest amount of, like 0.00025" or more if you wont to try do some repair work, which is no where near wearing through a 0.003" thick coating. It will not cause chipping or any other problems. Have a look, those ring grooves are deeper into the nikasil than the hone job went, and there is no nikasil chipped off in that area. Id probably have to hone another thou to get rid of them grooves completely. But then piston clearance would be getting a problem

If you have a bad cylinder, sure, get it recoated by millenium etc or U.S chrome.

If you find a machine shop that can do porsche engines, they will have the diamond hone tooling, as they will hone porsche nikasil bores all the time.





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