MSO = Title? Shame on you American Honda!


26 replies to this topic
  • Blue Hawaii

Posted 18 December 2009 - 01:01 PM

#1

[COLOR="Blue"]Bought a clean, used, never seen dirt 2006 CRF 450X with the intentions of plating it here in Hawaii.

American Honda sold the bike to one of it's dealers on Kauai called 2 Wheels, who went out of business. The sister company for the Kauai dealer, Cycle City, absorbed the inventory and "bought" it as a used bike, then transferred it to their Maui store. A guy walks in a week later and buys it from Maui Cycle City and takes out a loan with a local bank. The bank records the transaction through the conventional auto loan methods through the Bureau of Conveyances. The guy defaults on the loan and the bank repo's the bike, puts it up for auction, and a local auto dealer buys it in a "bulk" sale. The bank transfers ownership to the auto dealer and records the transaction again through the Bureau of Conveyances. I buy the bike from the auto dealer and have a notarized bill of sale with the VIN number clearly stated, along with all the previous bank paperwork and the Bureau of Conveyances paperwork. (Paper trail)

I make an appointment with my police department to inspect the bike, and I am told that there is no way in Hell that I will be able to plate this bike unless I have the original MSO (Manufacture's Statement of Origin) paper. The officer claims that the frame number might match up, but there is no record of the engine number and transmission associated with the VIN.

So...

I tried tracking down the guy who originally bought the bike to see if he has the MSO lying around, but since he reneged on several loans, he pulled stakes and left the state.

I called American Honda to request a duplicate MSO and was told that the do not re-issue duplicates after 12 months from the original sale date. (It's been 23 months.) Kawasaki, Suzuki and the others will issue one. Why won't Honda?

I called the Maui Cycle City to see if they still had the MSO in a sale folder, but I'm getting the feeling that they don't really care to look.

I talked to a guy who almost bought the bike from the auto dealer, put a deposit down, and backed out of the deal when he couldn't get the MSO either. (Smart guy you, Bulfer!)

Is there any way around this mess? If I can not plate this bike, I don't want it. I'll keep riding my CRF 230F in the dirt.

Help me if you can, please.

Thanks,

Blue.[/COLOR]

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  • OLHILLBILLY

Posted 18 December 2009 - 02:42 PM

#2

I dunno the particulars of Hawaii DMV laws but..
I gather no one ever registered and titled the bike when it was bought new? Sounds like one of those first 2 dealerships has dropped the ball on the paperwork, since by the time Cycle City got it, it was a "used" (ie.. a previously owned bike), and should have been titled by them.
Once again I don't know your state laws but, here in Missouri, you need the MSO to register and title a NEW bike. Once this has been done, the MSO is no longer needed (the license bureau has kept all the ones I've had).
If the bike has never been registered and the sales tax never paid, there is probably going to be some pretty hefty penalties to be paid (by you) along the way to getting it titled and plated.
Anyway, Cycle city is where you need to start for sure. They should have given the guy who defaulted on the loan all the needed paperwork to do what your trying to do. Then go to the bank, and onward until you find what you need, or the end of the trail. If the trail ends, you should be able to go to your DMV and request replacement paperwork (providing the bike doesn't show up on any stolen records).
Main question.. where is the TITLE? MSO is just the Manufacturer Certificate of Origin, and should be out of the picture after the first registration/change of hands.

Whew, I have turned down sooo many good deals on used dirt bikes because of this one reason.. NO TITLE.

  • Blue Hawaii

Posted 18 December 2009 - 02:52 PM

#3

[COLOR="Blue"]The bike was never registered by the dealership, nor the first owner who defaulted, since "dirt bikes" don't need to be. There is no way of telling whether a used "dirt bike" is stolen or not, since the VIN never gets recorded anywhere. My paper trail is "clean" as far as I'm concerned and I feel confident that this paticular bike is not stolen. The DMV doesn't see it as so. Their stance is a hard one... No MSO, no registration. PERIOD!

Looks like I'm a stupid man for thinking that my "proof" of ownership was enough. I should have passed on the bike like so many other have told me (from researching the history) have.

Looks like I'll try to sell it. If I don't have any luck, I'll part it out on TT or eBay.

Anyone else have any suggestions?[/COLOR]

  • OLHILLBILLY

Posted 18 December 2009 - 03:03 PM

#4

That's f***ed up. Hawaii sounds like a bike thief paradise. No way to tell if a bike is stolen because no one ever registers them anywhere? That's crazy.
Amazing how state by state DMV laws are different.
Well, good luck, hope everything turns out well for you.

  • Blue Hawaii

Posted 18 December 2009 - 03:11 PM

#5

[COLOR="Blue"]Yes, Hawaii is a messed up State. Just try starting a small business here. The bureaucrats will kill you with paperwork, filing fee, taxes on top of taxes and every which way they can throw at you, ways to make it hard to do business. They want to keep the population under their control. One of the ways is to keep the children from getting a good education so that they can't figure why the bureaucrats are voting themselves pay raises. Have you heard that our children are taking 34 days off of school this year and next because of upper level pay raises? That's right! They get a fat wallet, and our children don't get to go to school because there's no money for the DOE. Lame![/COLOR]

  • William1

Posted 18 December 2009 - 05:55 PM

#6

The auto dealer you bought it from has to supply you with a title.

The original MSO is only applicable until the first retail sale, at which point the bike has a state title. If the auto dealer you bought it from does not have the title, it is up to them to provide it. It is the law in every state I have ever lived in. But do not be shocked if they come up with a salvage title.

  • Blue Hawaii

Posted 18 December 2009 - 06:19 PM

#7

[COLOR="Blue"]"Dirt Bikes" or "For Off Highway Use Only" motorcycles do not get titled. You get a "Bill of Sale" saying that you are the owner. Along with that "Bill of Sale", you get the original, one and only, MSO. If you loose it, you are SOL (if it has been under 12 months from the sale date, American Honda will reissue the original owner one. After that, forget it.) If you sell the bike and the second owner does not ask for it, you can toss it, and then he is SOL. I can't believe that this little nothing of a piece of paper is the only thing standing between me having ANOTHER dirt bike, or having a dual purpose bike, one that I am willing to pay TAXES on![/COLOR]

Edited by Blue Hawaii, 19 December 2009 - 10:14 AM.


  • OLHILLBILLY

Posted 18 December 2009 - 06:53 PM

#8

Since we (I at least) have nothing better to do than speculate on the matter..
What happens if you buy a bike from out of state that has a title and/or Bill of Sale and no MSO (like from here in MO)? There HAS to be a way to deal with that scenario (like it or not, Hawaii is part of the USA, and has to deal with the rest of us).
Now, do you have any relatives or close friends in the continental US?
Here in MO for example, if you want to buy a vehicle (dirt bike, street bike, car, etc..) that doesn't have a title, you can take the VIN to the MO DMV and "file for a lost title". They do a "title search" which basically hunts for the last registered owner. If that owner is found they send him paperwork to fill out and release the vehicle. If no owner is found (as in your case), and it doesn't show up as stolen from anywhere, a new title is issued (gotta pay the fees, few $, not a lot), and it's legally yours.
So, if you know someone in the rest of the country that will help you, "sell" it to them. When they get it registered in their state, they "sell" it back to you, and you go through whatever proceedure is required for you to buy, register, and plate, a dirt bike from out of state.
Some paper work and time involved, but if you have a suitable contact, it's a thought.
For every law, there's a way to get around that law. You just gotta look hard enough for it.:moon:

  • IL8APEX

Posted 18 December 2009 - 08:03 PM

#9

^^^^ I'm with Billy.

Michigan is the same way: Upon first sale a Title is issued. You should be able to take your "Bill of Sale" to the DMV and have them do a search on the VIN. When the VIN comes up clean you should be able to apply for an "Off Road Only" title. Once you have that in hand you can apply for a safety inspection. Part of that inspection is ANOTHER search on the VIN. Once you have passed you can take your Title and the Inspection to the DMV and apply for a proper "On Road" Title.

Painful, I know. But worth it 'cause now I've got a plated CRF450R!

Come to think of it, you may be able to apply for a title under the "constructor's" clause. The inspection is similar or the same to what you'll do for the "on road" title.

Don't give up on this. There is a way. You know the bike isn't stolen, so there's got to be a way to prove that to the DMV!

-T

  • Mike38

Posted 18 December 2009 - 09:02 PM

#10

[COLOR="Blue"]"Dirt Bikes" or "For Off Highway Use Only" motorcycles do not get titled. You get a "Bill of Sale" saying that you are the owner.[/COLOR]



Okay, and a CRF450X is a dirt bike for off highway use. So how do you figure you'll get a title?

  • Hilo Thumper

Posted 19 December 2009 - 07:35 AM

#11

Okay, and a CRF450X is a dirt bike for off highway use. So how do you figure you'll get a title?


Out here if you put on DOT tires, hi/lo headlight, turn signals, horn, reflectors, mirror, brake light, odo, and a chainguard (might have missed something but basically all the stuff a street bike has) AND you have the MSO you can go to the PD and get a reconstruction permit after an inspection to verify DOT compliance. You then get a safety inspection and certified bike weight go to the DMV and they will issue you a title.

Plated WR250F and XR650R out in my shop right now and most of the guys over here have plated "Off HWY Use" bikes (YZ450F, CRF450X, WR450F, AF CR500, Betas, and others).

Blue's missing link is the critical MSO which you must turn in to get the Recon Permit.

  • Blue Hawaii

Posted 21 December 2009 - 03:10 PM

#12

What happens if you buy a bike from out of state that has a title and/or Bill of Sale and no MSO (like from here in MO)?

[COLOR="Blue"]Then it would have a title and registration with a DMV from that other state. There wouldn't be any problems with that senario. It would be like any other "transfer" of vehicle from state to state.[/COLOR]

Hawaii is part of the USA.

[COLOR="Blue"]You would think. It's kinda like one small step up from Guam. Pretty much still a third world country over here when it comes to government.[/COLOR]

Now, do you have any relatives or close friends in the continental US?

[COLOR="Blue"]Just in Californication. I don't think I want to even try shipping the bike there and have to deal with that states F*ucked up way of doing things. They'll probably tell me that it won't happen because the shade of red is too much a threat to the tweety birds or some asinine excuse as that.[/COLOR]

For every law, there's a way to get around that law. You just gotta look hard enough for it.:moon:

[COLOR="Blue"]I'm looking! Trust me. It's just a matter of telling them the right words. For instance; When I draw a set of blueprints for a residence that will be built on Ag A-1 (agriculture land), and I label the "house" a "residence", they will reject the plan because "residences" have to be built in "residential" neighborhoods. The correct way to label a "house" to be built on agricultural land is to label the "house" as "Farm Dwelling". Then it will pass. Stupid, I know.[/COLOR]

you should be able to apply for an "Off Road Only" title.

[COLOR="Blue"]No such animal here in Hawaii. Off road use bikes are only legally allowed to ride on private property and two designated areas on the Big Island. Road R10 atop Mauna Kea, and the Upper Waiakea ATV / Dirtbike Park. The latter which is a total joke unless you like riding over boulders the size of your head and larger, roots, ruts and ferns smacking you in the face and chest. The permit that is required to ride these two areas is free, but you must have it when you ride. That is why I want to plate the 450X to be able to ride just about anywhere.[/COLOR]

Blue's missing link is the critical MSO which you must turn in to get the Recon Permit.

[COLOR="Blue"]Stupid piece of paper! Does anyone have a scan of one that I can see what it looks like?[/COLOR]

Write to John DeSoto... If he is still a state rep he might be able to help....

[COLOR="Blue"]He's no longer in politics after serving his maximum 4 terms. I know that he is still involved with riding because I saw him on the news not too long ago for the dedication of the Sand Box (a new riding area on Sand Island, Oahu).[/COLOR]

  • kenr74

Posted 21 December 2009 - 03:26 PM

#13

It sucks but that is exactly why I stick with bikes that come with papers. No title or MSO means I'm not handing over cash.

Does Hawaii have a "lost" title or a process to get one if the title exists but can't be found? In Washington you can have a vehicle inspected and get a temp title. If after 3 years nobody comes forward claiming the bike you get the real title.

  • brentn

Posted 21 December 2009 - 06:10 PM

#14

I know it sounds crazy, but contact your governer and senator, just shoot them an email about your perdicament.

When it comes to votes, politicians will do anything. Mention that you voted for them.

I do this when I have a firearm woes cause it's all controlled by the government, when they do a half ass job the guys in charge need to know about it.
At the very least I always get a reply.

  • Blue Hawaii

Posted 21 December 2009 - 06:45 PM

#15

It sucks but that is exactly why I stick with bikes that come with papers. No title or MSO means I'm not handing over cash.

Does Hawaii have a "lost" title or a process to get one if the title exists but can't be found? In Washington you can have a vehicle inspected and get a temp title. If after 3 years nobody comes forward claiming the bike you get the real title.


[COLOR="Blue"]I was told by several people (who I trust) with their knowledge on this matter, that the paperwork I have (or would be getting) would be sufficient.

I had thought about the purchase two ways: If I can get a plate for the bike, great. If not, I'll be able to sell it, or at least part it out, and make twice my money back. It's just a bike. Like women... there's plenty out there to ride.

I'm not sure about the "lost" title. This whole process is about establishing rightful ownership. That is why American Honda will not re-issue duplicate MSO's. If you read the letter, they make it sound like I'm trying to avoid paying taxes and fees when nothing could be further from the truth. I'm trying to pay friken' taxes and fees![/COLOR]

Posted Image

  • lumpy790

Posted 21 December 2009 - 07:43 PM

#16

A MSO looks pretty much just like a title.

  • fivepointnine

Posted 22 December 2009 - 03:15 AM

#17

Georgia is the same, no titles or registration, only a MSO on a new bike....heck I took the out of state title for an enclosed trailer I bought to the DMV and they looked at me like I was crazy, no title for my enclosed trailer!

  • IL8APEX

Posted 22 December 2009 - 03:40 PM

#18

Hang in there, bud. Keep trying the Government Rep route.

Remember: You're only trying to get from Point A to Point B. They tax you for that. YOU"RE PAYING THEM!

-Tom

  • Blue Hawaii

Posted 22 December 2009 - 10:31 PM

#19

[COLOR="Blue"]Talked with the bank today who held the "title" and the lien on the bike. They do not require the MSO as proof of ownership. Merely a signature and your word that it's yours. I pressed to see if maybe it could have been turned in and lying in a folder someplace, but I got the irritated voice telling me that she had better things to do than to talk with me on the phone about a loan that doesn't exist anymore with her bank.

I am going down to the DMV tomorrow to see if the supervisor there can give me a few pointers on what might be needed to get around this BS.

I did write a letter that explains my dilema, and mailed a copy to everyone in Hawaii with the same last name as the previous owner of the bike in the hopes that I'll at least get an answer one way or another. I'll use some of that for a letter to my Mayor, Governor and Senator.

brentn: Don't even get me started about the stupid gun laws here in this state!![/COLOR]

  • Chickenhauler

Posted 22 December 2009 - 11:23 PM

#20

The auto dealer you bought it from has to supply you with a title.

The original MSO is only applicable until the first retail sale, at which point the bike has a state title. If the auto dealer you bought it from does not have the title, it is up to them to provide it. It is the law in every state I have ever lived in. But do not be shocked if they come up with a salvage title.


This is true for vehicles that require titles, but in many states, if it doesn't get a license plate, it doesn't get a title.

That's the way it is here for sleds, bikes, ATVs, boats, small trailers, etc.

No plate, no title.

[COLOR="Blue"]Talked with the bank today who held the "title" and the lien on the bike. They do not require the MSO as proof of ownership. Merely a signature and your word that it's yours. I pressed to see if maybe it could have been turned in and lying in a folder someplace, but I got the irritated voice telling me that she had better things to do than to talk with me on the phone about a loan that doesn't exist anymore with her bank.

I am going down to the DMV tomorrow to see if the supervisor there can give me a few pointers on what might be needed to get around this BS.


Whoa, hang on, stop right there.....you're saying there is a bank that had paper on this bike that hasn't been cleared up?

Man, I don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but.....read this- http://www.thumperta...=loan repo bike





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