Consensus on Sag setting? Boyesen Quickshot?


20 replies to this topic
  • Bandit9

Posted December 05, 2009 - 08:26 PM

#1

My last two bikes have been Euro bikes that I used like 110-120 mm sag numbers with great results. Just wondering if the 95-100mm sag numbers the manual suggests is what has been working for everyone on the trails or if somewhere north of that has been found to be better.

Also, I ordered the Quickshot II before I really started messing with the jetting. I cut out the airbox and my off idle bog just about went away, and I haven't even been able to adjust the fuel screw yet. Can't reach it. The screw will be in this coming week. So, is this Quickshot going to be worth going through the trouble installing? I read in SC's stickies that there is some debate on whether the Quickshot does anything at all.

Thanks

  • Krannie McKranface

Posted December 06, 2009 - 06:48 PM

#2

My last two bikes have been Euro bikes that I used like 110-120 mm sag numbers with great results. Just wondering if the 95-100mm sag numbers the manual suggests is what has been working for everyone on the trails or if somewhere north of that has been found to be better.

Also, I ordered the Quickshot II before I really started messing with the jetting. I cut out the airbox and my off idle bog just about went away, and I haven't even been able to adjust the fuel screw yet. Can't reach it. The screw will be in this coming week. So, is this Quickshot going to be worth going through the trouble installing? I read in SC's stickies that there is some debate on whether the Quickshot does anything at all.

Thanks


Sag is not a 'stand alone' number. You have race sag and static sag. 100mm/25mm for example. If you can achieve that, you have the right spring rate. You can adjust from their to affect handling, steering, etc.

The boyesen quickshot II is discontinued. It has been replaced by the III.
It gives you a better Accelerator Pump fuel bowl, and ajustability. CHANGE YOUR DIAPHRAM AND SPRING TOO if it doesn't come with one. They will be worn out.
Just changing one part on a carb will make a change, but the purpose of this part is to be able to get ALL the parts of the carb to work together. If your jetting is way off (pilot too large, for example) this will help that, but not give any benifit of it's own. If you pilot is spot on, it will make an improvement beyond that. My point is, it is NOT a 'fix' it is a tuning tool.
Your jetting, airbox opening, exhaust, needle taper, TPS setting all have to be set up correctly before you will get the full benifit of being able to fine tune your leak jet. All I can say is it made a huge difference in throttle response for me. I now get 3/4 throttle power with only 1/4 turn of the throttle. I did the full R&D bowl and leak jet combo on my WR.

  • Bandit9

Posted December 07, 2009 - 06:03 AM

#3

Thanks, I know all about sag. Was just wondering if it was common knowledge to run more than the manual suggest like my previous models. I'll just play with it and figure it out on my own.

Well, I ordered the II, maybe the III will come instead. Thanks for the response.

  • tribalbc

Posted December 07, 2009 - 07:16 AM

#4

95-100mm works good if you want this beast to turn.I also raise the forks in the triples 5-10mm.

  • Bandit9

Posted December 07, 2009 - 08:11 AM

#5

Thanks tribalbc. That is what I was looking for.

  • YamaLink

Posted December 07, 2009 - 05:10 PM

#6

http://www.tootechra...ension_tips.htm

I sometimes run about 90mm sag if I'm doing a long muddy race (in addition to changing comp and rebound settings).

  • MaddogYZ

Posted December 09, 2009 - 05:24 AM

#7

http://www.tootechra...ension_tips.htm

I sometimes run about 90mm sag if I'm doing a long muddy race (in addition to changing comp and rebound settings).


You loose a lot of rear wheel traction by jacking up the rearend like that. What's this sag setting doing for you that you like it in the mud?

  • Bandit9

Posted December 10, 2009 - 08:52 PM

#8

Not to speak for him, but I believe he is compensating beforehand for the additional weight all the mud will add to the bike. Pretty common, serious guys add some preload to the forks too for a muddy race. Some types of mud is very sticky, and will add 30+ pounds to the weight of a bike over the course of a race.

Quickshot II came in today. I'm dreading dealing with the FCR. Last time was in 03. Never got that 250F right. I got tired of it and went back to 2 strokes. We will see what 6 years does to my patience. Although there is a lot more help and info these days, so I'm gonna give it a go. Back then we were just learning about the AP. I remember I soldered my leak jet completely closed and it helped a bunch. I remember James Dean before he started making the JD Jet Kits. LOL those old threads are classics....

  • Bandit9

Posted December 14, 2009 - 09:31 PM

#9

The boyesen quickshot II is discontinued. It has been replaced by the III.
It gives you a better Accelerator Pump fuel bowl, and ajustability. CHANGE YOUR DIAPHRAM AND SPRING TOO if it doesn't come with one. They will be worn out.
Just changing one part on a carb will make a change, but the purpose of this part is to be able to get ALL the parts of the carb to work together. If your jetting is way off (pilot too large, for example) this will help that, but not give any benifit of it's own. If you pilot is spot on, it will make an improvement beyond that. My point is, it is NOT a 'fix' it is a tuning tool.
Your jetting, airbox opening, exhaust, needle taper, TPS setting all have to be set up correctly before you will get the full benifit of being able to fine tune your leak jet. All I can say is it made a huge difference in throttle response for me. I now get 3/4 throttle power with only 1/4 turn of the throttle. I did the full R&D bowl and leak jet combo on my WR.


I see what you mean on the QII vs. QIII now. I can see how that will be beneficial. Thanks for letting me in on that. I haven't installed the QII yet, I'm going to return it and get the QIII or the full R+D bowl and leak jet combo instead.

  • grayracer513

Posted December 16, 2009 - 12:40 PM

#10

Krannie makes an important point. Most products like the Quickshot and the PowerBowl are "magic feathers", and don't do much, especially if the "problem" was not with the accelerator pump in the first place. Most of the time, it's like moving everything to the left front of your car to "fix" a flat at the right rear. For most situations, there are built-in methods of AP tuning already, without resorting to such expensive aftermarket trinkets.

You have to be certain of what you want to change, and whether your "fix" will address that actual problem.

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  • beezer

Posted December 16, 2009 - 02:16 PM

#11

If you know what you are doing an adjustable leak jet can save alot of time.

The carb acess on an aluminum WR450 is very tight. Changing leak jets is a PIA.

  • grayracer513

Posted December 17, 2009 - 07:01 AM

#12

The point is, why are you "adjusting" it? Will it address your problem because that's what's actually needed, or is it a fashionable coverup for a different jetting issue? Does anything really need to be done with the leak jet, or is it only those who are selling $200 toys who say that? Things to figure out before you drop your wallet down a hole.

  • Bandit9

Posted December 17, 2009 - 07:38 PM

#13

I would adjust it before every ride, just like a fuel screw or air screw on 2 strokes. So to me, it is worth the $145 just to be able to fine tune it. Sure beats having to disassemble half the bike to get to the leak jet.

Got to go, I'm in the middle of regreasing the linkage and swing arm. Got the shock all broken down and ready for a new spring coming in tomorrow.

  • Krannie McKranface

Posted December 17, 2009 - 08:40 PM

#14

R&D floatbowl with adjustable leak jet for $ 189.00.

The combination of the two absolutely, positively, undeniably made an improvement over just changing the Leak jet to a 35, without changing any other jets or adjustments on the carb.

After then adjusting the leak, fuel screw and needle position, it got even better.

People "throw-away" 400-800.00 on a pipe that is absolutely partly 'fashionable', so why is $ 189.00 bucks to make the bike RUN CORRECTLY a bad idea? Most pipes just push the powerband around, not actually improve the power band.

I just don't get why so many people are highly resistant to things they have never experienced.

  • grayracer513

Posted December 17, 2009 - 09:54 PM

#15

I would adjust it before every ride, just like a fuel screw

Once the correct sized leak jet is in place, what possible cause would there be to need to change it?

R&D floatbowl with adjustable leak jet for $ 189.00.

...why is $ 189.00 bucks to make the bike RUN CORRECTLY a bad idea?

I just don't get why so many people are highly resistant to things they have never experienced.

Because it can be done for less than 1/6 of that, in most cases, and I have other things to spend money on.

I don't get why people think they know what someone they don't know has experience with.

  • William1

Posted December 18, 2009 - 02:17 AM

#16

There is one situation there the ALJ can be a big help. Say you ride in two distinct areas, tight single track and ripping on the wide open plains. You'd want a smaller leak jet in the tight stuff and a larger one in the wide open. With an ALJ, it is a easy adjustment to make.
I find pulling a the bowl on the bike to be a PITA, so the expense of an ALJ was worthwhile to me. But most riders set the jetting once in the bikes life time (if that often) and never again. In those cases, a ALJ is most certainly carb jewelery as a #40 leak jet would serve them fine.

  • grayracer513

Posted December 18, 2009 - 07:18 AM

#17

Say you ride in two distinct areas, tight single track and ripping on the wide open plains. You'd want a smaller leak jet in the tight stuff and a larger one in the wide open.

This describes fairly well the way I use my bike, and I have to ask, "why?"

The leak jet is a control on the AP circuit ONLY, and has no effect on anything else. The AP is active only as the throttle is opened to accelerate, and not during any steady-state condition. I don't ever change any aspect of my AP circuit to adjust for a different venue when I go from trails in the mountains to the open desert.

In fact, I'd see the need for a larger leak when working the throttle through the tight stuff, as killing unwanted pump delivery during partial throttle openings is what a leak jet is really for.

  • Bandit9

Posted December 18, 2009 - 11:28 AM

#18

[quote name='William1']There is one situation there the ALJ can be a big help. Say you ride in two distinct areas, tight single track and ripping on the wide open plains. You'd want a smaller leak jet in the tight stuff and a larger one in the wide open. With an ALJ, it is a easy adjustment to make.
I find pulling a the bowl on the bike to be a PITA, so the expense of an ALJ was worthwhile to me.[/QUOTE

For me, that is why, but also b/c of temperature changes. It can be a 40 degree difference b/t here and where I will be riding. I can be in the mountains of Colorado, or in La., or Tenn or Fla, or Okla, or TX. Just depends on where I'm riding.

  • William1

Posted December 18, 2009 - 05:46 PM

#19

Temp and altitude do not affect the AP that much.

I have found that I need a more robust squirt at slow speeds and less when riding fast. I think Gray is a significantly faster rider that I am and therefore does not experience that crawling slow bog that so many of us do which necessitates people needing a #40. I notice when I the the ALJ set for my old man in the woods, when I hit the wide open and finally let the bike run, every twitch causes the AP to squirt a little and that it is too rich on and throttle movement so opening the ALJ helps some.

  • grayracer513

Posted December 19, 2009 - 07:59 AM

#20

I think Gray is a significantly faster rider that I am

Well, you can believe anything you might like. :moon:

I notice when I the the ALJ set for my old man in the woods, when I hit the wide open and finally let the bike run, every twitch causes the AP to squirt a little and that it is too rich on and throttle movement so opening the ALJ helps some.

One thing to remember here is that direct comparisons between a YZ and a WR are difficult because they do use two different carbs. Nevertheless, what you describe is a carb with a too weak pump shot and a too small leak jet. The carb needs to be tuned so that it first needs as little an AP shot as possible through the correct selection of pilot and needle. Quite often, simply adjusting the height of the needle won't do it, and one of a different base diameter or profile has to be used.

Once that's done, the AP needs to be set up to provide a large enough boost to cover the tip open stumble, while the leak jet is made the smallest size that is still big enough to prevent dousing the engine during the slow/small twitches of throttle you mentioned. Pump timing, using diaphragms with alternative button lengths, and using the heavier linkage spring from Merge Racing are a means of doing these things.

Depending on an ALJ to take care of this is to paper over the problem without solving it, and the fact that it needs adjustment to different conditions is evidence of that. If it works for you, and you're happy with it, fine. But it's far from ideal, and still more expensive that it needs to be.




 
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