Just wanted to throw this out there-does anyone else think that the "450's are too fast and we need 350's" line of thinking is crap? I have been stewing about this for awhile. While I will be the first to admit that I don't (and probably never will) use my 450 to the fullest extent possible, I certainly use all of the power and torque in certain situations. Specifically, exiting tight turns into jumps, on loamy deep dirt, etc. It seems like the argument of bikes being too fast is always accompanied by "90% of riders don't use all the power anyway." If we all followed that argument and stuck to bikes we could all use the full power of, a lot of us would be on 80's or 125's. While I can see the argument that 450's should have never been allowed to compete against 250 2-strokes, one needs to rewind to the era in which this rule was implemented and remember that the thought of a 4-stroke of any size being competitive was beyond comprehension. I for one will be very disappointed if 350's replace 450's. Simple math says that to make a 350 fast, more rpm will be needed than a 450. This leads to the inevitable lack of service life of parts that 250f's are imfamous for (probably just to a lesser degree). I like the fact that the 450 makes plenty of power at a lower RPM, thus increasing the engine life to a tolerable level.

Just thought I'd throw the rant out to the masses and see where everyone else stands on the issue.

I think its good for the sport. If it doesn't work out for KTM they will drop the bike after a few years and put their r&d dollars elsewhere but for the time being they believe that with a 350 they can appeal to the greatest number of people. The torque of a 450 is nice, however the weight is a killer, and KTM is hoping that the weight they have saved will benefit more than the power loss they have suffered by moving to a smaller engine.

Im glad that some companies are willing to step outside the norm rather than continually making small changes to their current models.

Both Cairoli and Stewart won their titles with small bore versions of the YZ. Manufacturers want to win races to showcase their technology and costumers usually want to buy winners. There's nothing you can do about it.

Being a small guy, I can see the need for a 350
I ride a 250f and a little more would be nice, being a small bore, it falls under the same thing 125's do, it gets pushed harder than a big bike and that means its going to brake more. rode a 450, and its way too much, even though its true it only goes as fast as I twist the throttle, its what happens when you end up giving it too much
which is why I want a ktm400

how much weight will they save in the motor going from a 450 to a 350?

a 350 motor would be fantastic for off-road races. i think the 350 would be a fantastic trail bike. the only place that i use all of the 450 power is in the dunes.

i'm not sure about what a 350 would be like on a motocross track.

The whole 90% of riders dont use the power of the 450 is BS. Granted a majority of riders dont use 100% of the horsepower 100% of the time, but there are plenty of times that i have the throttle completely cracked on the thing. It takes a little time to adjust to the power, but after some seat time just about anyone who can ride will be able to use all the power to their advantage.. thats the beauty of a 450... you dial in as much power as you need, its torque curve is easy to work with, and when its that easy to dial back the power, whats the harm in having too much?


Andd... another thought: The reason that the 450s are alot more maintenance free and long lasting/reliable than the 250fs is because they get revved less. They make more power, and run lower rpms and therefor have a greater longevity. I bet that the longevity of a 350 would be linear with the 250f and 450. It would be dead in the middle, because it doesnt have the power, it will need to be flogged harder.

kskyles said:

I actually think the opposite, the only thing I dont like about a 450 is the weight around the mx track, the 250fs just fly nicer and handle better around the track, if you could get a little more power, with a little less weight (ie. 350f) it would be great.

For offroad, I use alot of the 450 alot of the time. Im not talking pure tight single track.. but blasting dirt roads, hill climbs, technical stuff where pure power makes things easy. There are plenty of little occasionsswhere my 250 (2-stroke) buddies have a harder time conquering and obstacle than us with the 450 mx bikes have.

If the bike is significantly lighter it wouls bw more appealing to certain crowds. I would consider a 350 for harescrambles to save some energy for those long races

omalley1537 said:

:lol: With the right gearing, my 250 smoker can hold it's own against a 450.

This is like comparing a ktm 300 to a ktm 200..why would anyone buy a 200? I've ridden both and have no interest in a 300, I'm on my 2nd 200. More power doesn't always mean more speed and most importantly it doesn't mean more fun. Small bikes are just more fun..If you offered me a 125 or a 450 for the same price, I would take the 125. The comparison has also been made between pro lap times on 250f's and 450's and at times the 250f's have been faster but they are always really close..why couldn't a 350 beat a 450? There are things called corners. Not everyone needs to have the biggest engine in order to feel secure with themselves either.

I agree...too much revving = too much maitenance. 350s will be good for east coast offroad riding and woods and probably for MX as well, but not as good out west as a 450. You all complaining about weight.....geez I still ride a 426, not competitvely just for fun and it is a tank compared to any 450.

stlavsa said:

you're right about the open sections. when you hit an open wash, or an open road, the 450 power and speed is awesome. but when i hit the technical sections, the 450 is a handful.

but, the 450 is a wonderful do-all bike. i wouldn't mind trying a 350 in some tight sections.

If people will buy the 350, than i'm all for them making them. I can't think of a better idea. Some people will want the more economical bike and not fall on thier back if they twist the throttle.

I don't understand why a company making a particular model would upset you. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

kskyles said:

yah if your are riding all tight stuff, i will be the first to admit that the 450 is a bit much... Where I ride and race, PA woods, we have alot of mixtures, especially when just play riding. its generally all quad trails, and even the tightest quad trails arent a problem for the 450s..

I would love to give a 350 a ride or two, but I personally think for what most people see on your average weekend riding session on your local woods trails the 450 is pretty great all around. Its a compromise really, if it were all tight stuff and single track then 450 would be cumbersome, but atleast in all of PA where I ride, its just not the case. 450 owns quad trails, hill climbs, open fields, chop, and high speed work. Its always nice to have a ton of power on tap when ur blasting a power line and you come up on a serious rut or obstacle, and need that power to still hoist the front end in 4th and 5th gear in case of emergency

Sub said:

for the sake of conversation i will have to disagree with you.. Im not sure of your stature, and im sure that plays a big factor, but if your big enuff (im 6'1.5" tall, 200lbs) more power does equal more speed and more fun.

When I first moved from 250 to 250f, i thought the power was fine, and really it was, the 250f had nearly the same grunt, but inorder to get that grunt it used short gearing and sacrificed top-speed. So i decided the 450 was in order. When I first bought the 450, i didnt thnk there was much of a power difference, and felt alot of weight difference, and kicking it was a PITA, so the 450 stayed in teh garage alot and i rode the 250f.

HOWEVER once i realized i just wasnt twisting the 450f enough, and once i learned to use all that extra power to my advantage, i put the 250f up for sale. Its funny how much lighter the 450s get once you learn to use the power for steering, manuevering, and keeping the bike upright.

my only real complaint about the 450 now is how fast I tear through rear tires and that my chain needs adjusted every ride..

this will be a great bike for vet mx. i predict the demand will be high and they will sell all they produce,this is a great move. i now race a 250f kaw and i'm going to give this bike a serious look.

I guess I’m not the only one that is tired of hearing that unless we are a national pro, we aren’t using all the power of our 450s. Those people probably don’t do hill climbs in the sand dunes. I don’t really understand the purpose of that argument anyway. Who cares if we like to ride powerful bikes. Maybe I want to run nitrous.

One of the more popular topics in 250f forums is " Big bore this, Big bore that"

There's an obvious demand. Vet MX will be an obvious interest group.

But, pleanty of people would rather shhot their foot off than ride a KTM. XD

I rarely use all the power of my 450, I'am a pretty slow rider, but I love to have it under my seat when the situation calls for it... Have seen too many 250's riders fall into ditches because lack of instant torque to lift the wheel...