It's Here...the 2010 YZ450F


1000 replies to this topic
  • grayracer513

Posted September 22, 2009 - 08:25 AM


When Yamaha came out with the original 4-stroke MX bike, that was revolutionary. Cannondale took that concept and added tunable fuel injection, aluminum perimeter frame, and a rearward facing exhaust port. And they did it several years ago.

Decades prior to that, several decades, in fact, motorcycles with intakes at the front and vice-versa were not that uncommon. The exhaust forward set up became common practice for several practical reasons, just as the majority of large displacement V-Twins have heads "reversed" and cylinders angled back. Yamaha here has reversed the head from what has now become standard for other practical reasons. Since EFI is reasonably commonplace, and perimeter frames were nothing new when Cannondale used one, the only particular design element unique to the Cannondale that the YZ uses is the reversed head. Hardly makes it a copy of any kind, especially considering that they are otherwise so different.

You are slightly flawed my friend, 4 stroke motocross bikes had been around for years.... not as good, but they were there... so let's say this , the 4 stroke motocross bike from Yamaha, the YZ400, was Evolutionary, when the sport changed bc of it, it became revolutionary...

Your point as to evolution vs. revolution is spot on. The Cannondale was a mutant that died out for a lot of very good reasons, none of them having to do with where the exhaust port was. The YZ400 has been revolutionary.

But it's well to recall that if you go far enough back in history, four-strokes dominated MX and every other form of MC competition until the mid 1960's, when two-strokes that were both reliable and powerful enough to compete finally emerged. You say four-strokes were not as good in those days, nothing was. Two-strokes of the 1950's were hopelessly unreliable, and not particularly fast, either. By the early 1970's the advantage of the modern two-stroke was great enough to have taken over MX almost completely, leaving the world as it was up to 1997.

  • Streets45

Posted September 22, 2009 - 08:39 AM


Decades prior to that, several decades, in fact, motorcycles with intakes at the front and vice-versa were not that uncommon. The exhaust forward set up became common practice for several practical reasons, just as the majority of large displacement V-Twins have heads "reversed" and cylinders angled back. Yamaha here has reversed the head from what has now become standard for other practical reasons. Since EFI is reasonably commonplace, and perimeter frames were nothing new when Cannondale used one, the only particular design element unique to the Cannondale that the YZ uses is the reversed head. Hardly makes it a copy of any kind, especially considering that they are otherwise so different.

Your point as to evolution vs. revolution is spot on. The Cannondale was a mutant that died out for a lot of very good reasons, none of them having to do with where the exhaust port was. The YZ400 has been revolutionary.

But it's well to recall that if you go far enough back in history, four-strokes dominated MX and every other form of MC competition until the mid 1960's, when two-strokes that were both reliable and powerful enough to compete finally emerged. You say four-strokes were not as good in those days, nothing was. Two-strokes of the 1950's were hopelessly unreliable, and not particularly fast, either. By the early 1970's the advantage of the modern two-stroke was great enough to have taken over MX almost completely, leaving the world as it was up to 1997.


I like this guy:thumbsup:

haha I totally agree man. I was just stating the obvious, lol , but yes for the record 2 strokes weren't good in the old days either...

I am a huge supporter of the 2 stroke staying alive... i wish everyone would update them as they do 4 strokes....

but i will admit i like a 4 stroke better. I know they are more expensive, both to buy and maintain... but there's no denying the fact that 4 strokes have a much more useable powerband... end of story...

I know it sucks but MXA has done several tests of 2 vs 4.... and everytime they hold to it that 250 2t vs 250F the 250F posts better all around consistency on different tracks, and that a 450 just can't be beat...


and those guys are constantly expressing the fact that they dont like 2 strokes being more or less gone!!!

  • rdefonce

Posted September 22, 2009 - 08:51 AM


[quote name='Streets45']
I know it sucks but MXA has done several tests of 2 vs 4.... and everytime they hold to it that 250 2t vs 250F the 250F posts better all around consistency on different tracks [QUOTE]

Not to get too far off-topic; I'm sure the new 2010 YZ450F will whup up on any 250 smudgepot
BUT
I'll bet if the AMA National MX series allowed 250 2-strokes to compete against 250 4-strokes, MOST of the racers would be on smokers!

  • Streets45

Posted September 22, 2009 - 09:40 AM


[QUOTE=rdefonce;8624667
Not to get too far off-topic; I'm sure the new 2010 YZ450F will whup up on any 250 smudgepot
BUT
I'll bet if the AMA National MX series allowed 250 2-strokes to compete against 250 4-strokes, MOST of the racers would be on smokers![/QUOTE]

I don't doubt you there... but whether or not the factories allowed it now would be an issue.... they have so much money into these 4 strokes... who knows....

I hope for 2010 they allow it again....

MX sports said they are working on it, they wanted to get it done this year but the lead ban cause delays on everything..... shooting for 2010...

if they allow it, i don't doubt KTM and Yamaha guys will be on 2 smokers... idk about Honda or Kawi...

Suzuki would probably be mixed up a bit...

Cal me crazy, i think an awesome idea for the sport would be to have 3 classes:

125cc 2 strokes

250cc 2 strokes/250cc 4 strokes

450cc 4 strokes

and it could be like 125,250 and 450 classes, or maybe something like FIM with MX1 MX2 and MX3..???? what do you guys think?

  • 06yz

Posted September 22, 2009 - 10:02 AM


I totally agree with one addition, the 450 class shoul be an open class and 500 smokers should compete

  • tk1

Posted September 22, 2009 - 10:06 AM


Decades prior to that, several decades, in fact, motorcycles with intakes at the front and vice-versa were not that uncommon. The exhaust forward set up became common practice for several practical reasons, just as the majority of large displacement V-Twins have heads "reversed" and cylinders angled back. Yamaha here has reversed the head from what has now become standard for other practical reasons. Since EFI is reasonably commonplace, and perimeter frames were nothing new when Cannondale used one, the only particular design element unique to the Cannondale that the YZ uses is the reversed head. Hardly makes it a copy of any kind, especially considering that they are otherwise so different.

Originally Posted by Streets45
You are slightly flawed my friend, 4 stroke motocross bikes had been around for years.... not as good, but they were there... so let's say this , the 4 stroke motocross bike from Yamaha, the YZ400, was Evolutionary, when the sport changed bc of it, it became revolutionary...


Your point as to evolution vs. revolution is spot on. The Cannondale was a mutant that died out for a lot of very good reasons, none of them having to do with where the exhaust port was. The YZ400 has been revolutionary.

But it's well to recall that if you go far enough back in history, four-strokes dominated MX and every other form of MC competition until the mid 1960's, when two-strokes that were both reliable and powerful enough to compete finally emerged. You say four-strokes were not as good in those days, nothing was. Two-strokes of the 1950's were hopelessly unreliable, and not particularly fast, either. By the early 1970's the advantage of the modern two-stroke was great enough to have taken over MX almost completely, leaving the world as it was up to 1997.

I think you're both missing my point. I'm not talking about what came first in terms of inventions, etc. Or the evolution that followed. The debate, in my mind, is simply whether or not this bike (Yamaha) will revolutionize MX. Because as we all agree, in terms of ideas, this new YZ is evolutionary in comparison to what has already been offered (Cannondale, etc.) in the past.

As I've stated, the original YZ400F changed the face of MX. Much like the original Elsinores did in the 70's. They were both "overnight sensations". The only question remaining is whether or not this new YZ will do the same. Imo, it will not. There will be no revolution this time.

If the new YZ is a continued success from a marketing (sales) standpoint, you can expect the rest of major manufacturers to follow suit. It that respect, I suppose one could consider it "revolutionary". Of course this scenario will depend on magazine and other industry hype. But I wouldn't expect to suddenly be passing everyone in your class on the track if their not aboard this new Yamaha.

It would be naive to believe that Yamaha, and the rest, have not carefully dissected the Cannondale MX440. Studying it's flaws and strengths. History has shown that the Japanese have proven to be masters at taking the ideas of others and making sweeping improvements. And now, the Chinese are advancing in the same manner. But that is a topic for another day.........

  • grayracer513

Posted September 22, 2009 - 10:35 AM


It would be naive to belief that Yamaha, and the rest, have not carefully dissected the Cannondale MX440. Studying it's flaws and strengths.

I think it would be presumptuous to believe that they gave it more than a passing thought.

  • tk1

Posted September 22, 2009 - 11:12 AM


Originally Posted by tk1
It would be naive to belief that Yamaha, and the rest, have not carefully dissected the Cannondale MX440. Studying it's flaws and strengths.


I think it would be presumptuous to believe that they gave it more than a passing thought.


Well, maybe. But I doubt a successful company like Yamaha makes it a habit to ignore sound business practices.

  • Aka.Goose

Posted September 22, 2009 - 11:50 AM


I think it's fair to say that the guys who designed the new yz have all kinds of motors across all kinds of machines in their head already as they are designing...
Of course they've looked at MANY other motorcycle designs, and gained ideas from them...Why would that even be a discussion that takes up a whole page?
There's no arguing that this isn't an original bike even though it has borrowed ideas from other manufacturers, imo...
You have to admit you'd love to ride one with the complete GYTR package...

  • tk1

Posted September 22, 2009 - 11:57 AM


I think it's fair to say that the guys who designed the new yz have all kinds of motors across all kinds of machines in their head already as they are designing...
Of course they've looked at MANY other motorcycle designs, and gained ideas from them...Why would that even be a discussion that takes up a whole page?
There's no arguing that this isn't an original bike even though it has borrowed ideas from other manufacturers, imo...
You have to admit you'd love to ride one with the complete GYTR package...

You're right. And if I had the money, one of each color would be on order.

Visit the ThumperTalk Store for the lowest prices on motorcycle / ATV parts and accessories - Guaranteed
  • txknucklehed

Posted September 22, 2009 - 12:02 PM


actually one of each color for each day of the week to suit my mood. they need a black out version. you know kinda like the R1 raven only no gay flames.

  • grayracer513

Posted September 22, 2009 - 01:14 PM


Well, maybe. But I doubt a successful company like Yamaha makes it a habit to ignore sound business practices.

Irrelevant. Nothing about the design of any motorcycle has anything to do with anyone's business practices.

  • FinchFan194

Posted September 22, 2009 - 02:58 PM


actually one of each color for each day of the week to suit my mood. they need a black out version. you know kinda like the R1 raven only no gay flames.


ya maybe one without gay black freestyle plastics?

J/K

  • rjcook450

Posted September 22, 2009 - 05:10 PM


I totally agree with one addition, the 450 class shoul be an open class and 500 smokers should compete


yes yes yes, I agree. I would love to see some fast guys on the CR500AF or KX500AF, going against the 450's on the national level, I know they wouldnt be a factory effort for this, but a good priveteer team could do well.

  • ah665

Posted September 22, 2009 - 05:52 PM


i would have to agree with what TK1 said. the bike is a great advancement. i dont think it will impact the sport/industry anywhere near as much as the orig yzf but regardless, it is great to see yamaha move forward. im sure it will be the 450 to have this year. however, for those who are saying its gonna make you so much faster, prepare for a rude awakening. the guys that were faster than you this year, are still gonna beat you on their (insert non-yamaha brand here) next year unless YOU got better, not the bike. the faster rider will still win-out and this bike isnt turning average riders into factory stars..lets keep that in mind. either way, i love the bike. can wait for further tests and shootout material to read!

  • tk1

Posted September 22, 2009 - 08:59 PM


Irrelevant. Nothing about the design of any motorcycle has anything to do with anyone's business practices.

So you don't think motorcycle manufacturers, (in an effort to design better products), dissect their competitors offerings as a routine business practice? It's done every day in the auto industry. Maybe you have missed that observation, but I'm quite sure Yamaha hasn't. In fact, the old Cannondale should be testament enough.

  • grayracer513

Posted September 23, 2009 - 06:15 AM


So you don't think motorcycle manufacturers, (in an effort to design better products), dissect their competitors offerings as a routine business practice?

Sure, but Yamaha would have looked into the MX440 over ten years ago, and I really doubt that it was even a consideration in the layout of this machine. There really was never anything new there in the first place. It's a curiosity, and nothing more.

Besides, that's not exactly a business practice as much as an engineering practice.

  • nephic

Posted September 23, 2009 - 08:02 AM


So you don't think motorcycle manufacturers, (in an effort to design better products), dissect their competitors offerings as a routine business practice? It's done every day in the auto industry. Maybe you have missed that observation, but I'm quite sure Yamaha hasn't. In fact, the old Cannondale should be testament enough.


Really?..no I mean REALLY? Your views as expressed on this and in some other post are almost extremist :banana: :banana: :banana: BBR developed the alluminum perimeter frame, everybody followed eventually. Yamaha developes the four stroke motocrosser, everybody follows eventually, Cannondale develops its MX440, nobody gives a crap. Yamaha, and the other manufacturers kept right on doing better stuff. Cannondale dies, few people care. Fast forward, and now, because a bike has the same color plastics, and an intake on the same side of the engine, you think that you have to tell the whole world "oh its just like a cannondale, just look at a picture." :thumbsup:

In truth, the Cannondale is really just a spawn of the YZ400 in the first place. Yamaha is the only company that legitimately can take ownership of the trend that has now experienced its latest evolution with the 2010 YZ450f.

If you read alot, which is sometimes hard for someone who prefers to draw conclusions from pictures where both bikes have white plastic, you probably got to the MXA website and read about the series of manufacturers that have been working on the intake in front system for quite some time, well pre-dating the Dale . Yamaha was one of many, and arguably the first to do it well. :busted:

http://www.motocross...C5649F2DE5447F4

What is truly revolutionary is the package that the new yamaha reresents. The perimeter frame is refined to a level that no other manufacturer approaches. The suspension continues to be the best production stuff in the world. The engine is unlike anything ever built in the motocross world, and that is fact (or to make it more clear, the cant and the cylinder offset). The exhaust is revolutionary. Tank placement is unlike anything seen on a modern motocrosser. Intake trac is world class. The fuel injection system is top of the line. But what really makes the Yamaha revolutionary is the sum of its parts. It is a well designed growth and assimilation of the best ideas and practices of the whole industry. And saying it is "basically a Cannondale" is like saying that a Corvette is basically a Pinto!:banana:

It's not.

But I'm glad that I was able participate in the conversation, and can't wait to hear you act real smart again. It's very entertaining. Although I may be getting dumber everytime I read the word Cannondale next to motorcycle. It just seems wrong...maybe perverse is a better way to phrase it.

  • Aka.Goose

Posted September 23, 2009 - 10:04 AM


Jeeze...I can't wait 'til this thread starts talking about how it rides, instead of what it looks like and who designed what first...
And start seeing stuff like the the ideal power tune settings...And the breather hose mods (can't believe they left it like that)...

  • Streets45

Posted September 23, 2009 - 10:29 AM


Jeeze...I can't wait 'til this thread starts talking about how it rides, instead of what it looks like and who designed what first...
And start seeing stuff like the the ideal power tune settings...And the breather hose mods (can't believe they left it like that)...



It rides like a ****in magic carpet:thumbsup:





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