Time Cert failure?


19 replies to this topic
  • natehawes

Posted September 03, 2009 - 07:03 PM

#1

A couple months back I had the oil filter cover bolt stripping problem on my 2006 YZ 450. I used the Time Cert product to fix it. Everything worked great for a couple of months. No issues. Now, the insert has stripped out of the hole for no apparent reason. I was just changing the oil tonight, applying appropriate force to the bolt, and it stripped out.

2 Questions:
1. Why did it strip? Do you think Time Cert will help me out by giving me a new kit to fix this problem?

2. How do I fix this? The hole is now too big for the M6 insert to fit. Should I just go up on size and do it all over again? Does the case right there have enough room to do that?

Thanks for any help.
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  • rufusz

Posted September 04, 2009 - 12:13 AM

#2

I was just changing the oil tonight, applying appropriate force to the bolt, and it stripped out.


It get's stripped out only by excessive tightening force...BTW

1. Why did it strip? Do you think Time Cert will help me out by giving me a new kit to fix this problem?


See above.

2. How do I fix this? The hole is now too big for the M6 insert to fit. Should I just go up on size and do it all over again? Does the case right there have enough room to do that?


You would need a timesert which has the outer thread M8 and the inner still M6 (don't know if there's such a piece), so you can use the original bolt to tighten the cover. If you use normal M8 timesert, you need to drill the cover also up to 8mm.

  • yz450fcranker

Posted September 04, 2009 - 02:52 AM

#3

maybe the timesert failed because the pasrt where it gets attached to the case failed tooyou can see the aluminum residue from the case still on the sert

  • KtmKramer

Posted September 04, 2009 - 04:25 AM

#4

Timeserts and helicoils often fail in aluminum due to heat. The constant expanding and contracting of the host aluminum part loosens the insert, then if you try to tighten the bolt when the engine is hot and the fitting is at its loosest, wham. It pulls out.

  • USED YZ426F

Posted September 04, 2009 - 06:00 AM

#5

I doubt if time-sert will help you out on this one. Perhaps if you found a good welder, they could weld the hole closed. You would then be able to drill and retap it to the original dimensions.

Could be worth a look at least. Absolute worst case scenario is you have to replace the case. But that would be the absolute worst case. There would have to be something that could be done short of that.

  • nickeenoo

Posted September 04, 2009 - 06:06 AM

#6

It looks to me that the flange at the top of the Time Sert is bent? Was this a result of taking the Time Sert out? If not it looks to me like it was installed improperly. If it was installed improperly and never seated correctly then over time it could fail (as it did).

Nate

  • natehawes

Posted September 04, 2009 - 06:28 AM

#7

The flange is bent. However, I think it was installed correctly. This is not rocket science. You just tighten it down until the insert driver gets tight then keep turning until it gets loose again. That is straight fromthe instructions. Also, the flange was seated tight to the case.

So maybe it bent during removal?

  • grayracer513

Posted September 04, 2009 - 07:04 AM

#8

If the insert was fully seated, why are there only broken threads in the bottom half of it?

  • nickeenoo

Posted September 04, 2009 - 07:20 AM

#9

Another thought: was the hole you drilled straight? It's real easy to get crooked when drilling in aluminum. If the hole was not straight, that could contribute to the flange being bent and the Time-Sert not seating correctly.

As far as fixing it, I think an easy way would be to increase the size of the Time-Sert and then drill out the oil filter cover to fit the increased bolt size.

Nate

  • yz450fcranker

Posted September 04, 2009 - 11:15 PM

#10

if the stock threads got damaged before the timesert then why blame the timesert if it got pulled out of the ALUMINUM that you had to fix in the first place logically i think of it that before the Timesert you damaged the threads and after the Timesert you still damaged the threads again for the timesert maybe you need something permanent

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  • natehawes

Posted September 05, 2009 - 06:47 AM

#11

Thanks for all the comments. As far as it being installed correctly, I'm pretty sure it was. Anyone who has done this fix knows it's not very complicated. As far as only some threads appearing to be damaged, that is just because the aluminum on the "upper" threads was knocked off by the oil cover when it came out. As for the threads being damaged in the aluminum before installing the Timesert, I don't think that was the case either because everything was tight and firm when it was installed.

I think KTMKramer might be right about the heat. My engine was still a little warm when changing the oil. I usually change it when the engine is cold. So, if heat really affects these, do you have to wait for the engine to be cold every time to change the oil?

  • natehawes

Posted September 05, 2009 - 06:49 AM

#12

One more thing, when I drilled out the hole it should have been straight because I bought the little metal tube from Timesert that you hold against the case as you drill to make sure the bit is square with the case.

  • natehawes

Posted September 05, 2009 - 01:37 PM

#13

I wanted to give everyone and update. I called a guy here that I found out did a lot of these fixes. He told me that almost every time he does the Timesert from the BACK of the crankcase cover. Since I still had good threads at the back, I decided to give it a try. All you have to do is remove the cover (about an hour for the inexperienced) and put the Timesert in from the back. I still need new clutch and crankcase cover gaskets, so I haven't been able to put it all back together, but here are the pics of the Timersert from the back side.
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  • USED YZ426F

Posted September 05, 2009 - 07:36 PM

#14

What happens if it pulls out again? Weld the hole up and redrill / retap? Or replace the whole cover?

  • nickeenoo

Posted September 06, 2009 - 03:58 PM

#15

That looks like a reasonable fix but I am curious once again as to how the insert failed.

If the insert were done correctly the oil filter cover should seat against the Time Sert as the Time Sert should be flush with the outside of the case. If this was the case then no matter how tight you tightened the lower oil filter cover bolt the Time Sert should not pull out because it couldn't - it would hit the filter cover which is also flush with the case. I would think if there was a failure in this situation, it would be the lower oil filter cover bolt itself that would strip as the steel Time Sert is definitely stronger than the aluminum bolt.

I'm not trying to be a pain, but I would like to figure out why the part failed so as to possibly help some future Time Sert user. Ultimately, based on the bent Time Sert and the way the insert pulled out, I would think it was installed incorrectly. Maybe it was installed too deep or maybe the threaded hole that the Time Sert is inserted in was not cleaned or deburred properly? Maybe you got a defective Time Sert?

  • grayracer513

Posted September 06, 2009 - 04:14 PM

#16

If the insert were done correctly the oil filter cover should seat against the Time Sert as the Time Sert should be flush with the outside of the case. If this was the case then no matter how tight you tightened the lower oil filter cover bolt the Time Sert should not pull out because it couldn't - it would hit the filter cover which is also flush with the case.

Not true. The lower cover bolt is shouldered, if you remember. It sits in a bore about a half inch deep, and the threaded hole is at least that far from the cover.

And, BTW, the bolt is steel.

  • CaptainKnobby

Posted September 06, 2009 - 06:30 PM

#17

I used a time sert on my right side oil drain bolt hole and it was a pain to get to. i had to remove the motor and it was still hard to get the drill bit into that area.

I got the insert insert installed and applied the red loctite on the outer part of the insert and let it dry over night and so far it is holding good and i can apply 14lbs torque.

  • rufusz

Posted September 06, 2009 - 10:27 PM

#18

...it would be the lower oil filter cover bolt itself that would strip as the steel Time Sert is definitely stronger than the aluminum bolt.


What aluminium bolt??? :busted: If something is gray, it must not be necessarily aluminium

  • natehawes

Posted September 07, 2009 - 06:08 AM

#19

I thought I did the original fix correctly, but I must have done something wrong. I don't know what I did because I followed the instructions that came with the kit to a T. But the Timesert is a good product and should have worked the first time. I guess it really doesn't matter now because I've done the fix from the backside. This way, the bolt is always pulling against the insert and should, therefore, never come loose. I also used red Locktite this time, something I didn't do last time.

  • nickeenoo

Posted September 07, 2009 - 07:20 AM

#20

Not true. The lower cover bolt is shouldered, if you remember. It sits in a bore about a half inch deep, and the threaded hole is at least that far from the cover.

And, BTW, the bolt is steel.


Ahh, I do remember. In fact I threaded my bolt all the way to the bolt head because I did not counter bore the case in order to let the Time Sert be installed at the original depth. When I did my Time Sert (it's been over a year and I have since sold the bike so this is from poor memory at best) the Time Sert ended up flush with the case therefore the oil filter cover seated against the Time Sert. However, memory might not serve me well.

As far as calling the steel bolt aluminum, I knew better and I have no excuse:excuseme:

Nate





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