No oil on dipstick after oil change- 2006's


39 replies to this topic
  • mx369

Posted September 02, 2009 - 04:26 PM

#1

Drained oil out of both my 450s last night. Both drain plugs and filters. Let set 24 hours and put scott filters back in and little more than a quart in each bike. started one and let idle for about 2 minutes. shut it off and started other bike and let idle and then shut it off. Went back to first bike and checked oil level and just right. Went to 2nd bike and checked and NO oil on dipstick. Added more oil and started it. Let sit a minute or 2 and still none on stick. Pulled oil filter out and cranked it slowly, oil came out the large hole into filter housing. Put cover back on without filter and started it. Still no oil on dipstick!!! Put filter back in and started. let sit 2 minutes and still no oil on stick. I have had yzfs since 1998. Not new to these things. I change oil every 2 hours ( hour Meter). No new clutches since last year. Any thoughts???????????

  • grayracer513

Posted September 03, 2009 - 06:36 AM

#2

Check the pressure balance line between the clutch case and oil reservoir. With the dip stick out, you should be able to move air through the line, into the "tank", and out the dip stick hole. Likewise, you should able to move air through the line, into the crankcases, and out through the breather.

Another possibility is a clogged sump screen. If you suspect this, it is semi-accessible through a port behind and below the flywheel.

You can also check for oil returning from the crankcases to the tank by loosening the dip stick while the engine is running and lifting it slightly out of place (this makes a mess). Return oil passes from the ignition cover to the tank right at that point, so oil should flow out around the dip stick. If you have the ignition cover off, you can inspect the entire passageway (red in the drawings below).

If you have oil flowing from the main passageway into the filter well, some oil must necessarily be getting back to the tank.

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  • mx369

Posted September 03, 2009 - 03:12 PM

#3

I will check this tonite. I dont think oil screen is dirty. Im an oil changing fanatic. No clutch problems on either bike. The scott filter has never been dirty. Clean it every time I change the oil.

  • mx369

Posted September 03, 2009 - 05:15 PM

#4

Just checked the external oil line from lower right side to tank. No obstruction. Was some oil drainage from it. Drained oil again and put some back into dipstick hole and rest in ignition side fill hole. Started it and let idle for a minute. Still no oil on dipstick.I have at least 1.5 quarts in it so not low on oil.

When I started it I did loosen dipstick, no oil came out but some air pressure is present.

Loosened the little bolt in back left side of head. A little oil trickled out. Held kill switch and kicked bike and oil pumped out. Started it and oil shot out so oil is getting to the head.

Maybe Im not letting it rum long enough?

  • grayracer513

Posted September 03, 2009 - 06:42 PM

#5

Mine fills the tank from the crankcases in about 60 seconds.

  • mx369

Posted September 04, 2009 - 10:11 AM

#6

Im going to pull off ign side and kick over bike to see if oil is pumping to tank when I get home today

  • mx369

Posted September 04, 2009 - 10:44 AM

#7

another question what causes the pressure at the dipstick? The oil coming into the tank? And then the pressure goes through the hose back to crankcase on clutch side?

  • grayracer513

Posted September 04, 2009 - 12:15 PM

#8

another question what causes the pressure at the dipstick? The oil coming into the tank? And then the pressure goes through the hose back to crankcase on clutch side?

If you assume that right after an oil change, the tank is empty, which it is, and the entire oil supply is in the crankcase, then when the engine starts running and pumps oil back to the tank, the air in the tank has to go somewhere. What Yamaha decided to do was run a hose from the tank to the crankcases to allow air to balance out by moving between the two. Remember that the crankcase is vented to the outside (or, it's supposed to be). On the steel bikes, this line ran between the cam cover and the tank in the frame. On the newer ones, it's between the tank and clutch side cover, same thing. It would work as well if the line did not come from the engine, but simply went from the tank out to the air, but doing that would be another point for dirt intrusion. As long as the air pressure in the tank is the same as the pressure in the crankcase, it's all good.

If you have air pressure building in the tank, it isn't venting properly. Oil pumping out at the dip stick with the engine running is only because that's were the return oil passage ends.

  • northsouth

Posted September 05, 2009 - 11:34 AM

#9

I just bought brand new '07 450 (less than 2 hrs on it) and I am having the exact same issue. I took it to the track for the first time today and no oil on the dipstick. No matter how much oil I add it won't register. It did sit for quite a while with out being ridden, so I thought something (oil pump?) may have frozen up. I took it around the corner to the local Yamaha stealership and they had no clue- said they have never seen it before.

  • mx369

Posted September 05, 2009 - 11:43 AM

#10

I believe its equal. I pinched the valve cover hose and more air came out the dipstick hole. Oil is pumping out the little hole in the head when I just kick it over with kill switch on. I just rode it for abou 5 minutes and verything fine. But still no oil on dipstick. Where and how does the oil in the tank get used after it gets there?

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  • northsouth

Posted September 05, 2009 - 06:16 PM

#11

Success! After draining the oil again (both drain plugs), re-inspecting the oil filter and blowing out the vent from the tank to the crankcase (which was clean) I checked the vent comming from the valve cover and found a mud dobber nest. Blew it out, replaced the oil, idled for 3 minutes and I now have a glistening wet dipstick! (I mean oil to the proper level on the oil checking device). Yee-Haw!

  • grayracer513

Posted September 05, 2009 - 08:08 PM

#12

Where and how does the oil in the tank get used after it gets there?

There are two oil pumps sharing the same drive shaft. Oil feeds by gravity from the tank to the feed pump, which sends it under pressure to the oil filter. From there it enters the filter cover, where it branches into two passages in the crankcase cover. The lower of these routes to the crankshaft to feed the rod bearing. Oil thrown off at this point oils the cylinder and wrist pin.

The second branch enters the crankcase and splits into 3. One goes to the trans bearings on the left side and through the shafts to the gears and the clutch. another runs to an oil mister that aids in piston cooling. The last one runs around the right rear head bolt to the head and cams.

Once this oil passes through the passageways and out into the engine it drains back into the bottom, where it is picked up by the return, or scavenging pump, and sent back to the tank. There is no pressure on the return circuit, and the pump rotors are twice the size of the feed pump so that the oil will be returned faster than it feeds in.

I have seen the drive pin on the return rotor shear off, leaving the feed pump functional, but the return moving oil very poorly.

  • mx369

Posted September 06, 2009 - 03:16 PM

#13

I know of just the one pump. Its located on the right side down low and driven off the idler gear. Where is the other pump?

Glad the other guy figured his out!

  • grayracer513

Posted September 06, 2009 - 04:10 PM

#14

I know of just the one pump. Its located on the right side down low and driven off the idler gear. Where is the other pump?

Glad the other guy figured his out!

Right behind it. You can think of it as one pump with two sets of rotors, but it's two pumps on the same shaft. The one that stays assembled in its case is the feed pump. The rotor set that sits in the crankcase is the return.

  • mx369

Posted September 06, 2009 - 07:20 PM

#15

Will pull it apart monday and look. Thanks

  • Slick_Nick

Posted September 08, 2009 - 06:36 PM

#16

Is the crank bearing pressure fed or is it just a needle bearing that's splash oiled?

  • grayracer513

Posted September 08, 2009 - 08:33 PM

#17

The big end rod bearing is pressure fed. The mains and wrist pin are oiled by splash and drain back.

  • mx369

Posted September 10, 2009 - 05:21 AM

#18

Installed new oil pumps last night. Still no oil on dipstick. Oil is flowing into tank. I started it with dipstick loose and oil sprayed out on front of motor.AGGGHHHHHHH Then I rode it for about 5 minutes. No problems just no oil in tank.

  • grayracer513

Posted September 10, 2009 - 06:32 AM

#19

Installed new oil pumps last night. Still no oil on dipstick. Oil is flowing into tank. I started it with dipstick loose and oil sprayed out on front of motor.AGGGHHHHHHH Then I rode it for about 5 minutes. No problems just no oil in tank.

Either the tank or the engine crankcases themselves are not ventilating as they should.

  • mx369

Posted September 10, 2009 - 05:31 PM

#20

I took off gas tank and started bike. Air blows out the big black hose from the valve cover, hard. Took off hose at valve cover and air blew out hard when running.Reinstalled tank. Took off water pump guard. Took hose off at side case and blew back towards oil tank with dip stick out. No blockage. Put another hose on where it went into side cover and blew in with no restrictions. Started bike with the hoses thes way, and the pressure I felt at dipstick hole is coming out of the hose going to lower case. Little or No pressure on hose from side case hose that I put on to check for blockage. This is crazy.





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