The big maintenence lie?


58 replies to this topic
  • bills442

Posted July 31, 2009 - 03:13 PM

#41

Maybe for you...either way maintenance is maintenance whether its for a 2 or 4 stroke and this thread is getting old

Everyone has their likes and dislikes...just go out and ride :thumbsup:


but but, I love these threads. I'm at work, I can't ride :worthy:

but arguing over pointless stuff on TT ... THAT I can do :ride:

  • RollieW

Posted July 31, 2009 - 03:16 PM

#42

the question....which is more maintenance? the answer.....neither, it's just that a chimp can replace a top end and someone flipping burgers can pay for it.:thumbsup:

  • SJMC_DON

Posted July 31, 2009 - 03:17 PM

#43

the question....which is more maintenance? the answer.....neither, it's just that a chimp can replace a top end and someone flipping burgers can pay for it.:thumbsup:


My 17 yo makes pizza and he can do neither:lol: :worthy: :ride:

  • RollieW

Posted July 31, 2009 - 03:37 PM

#44

My 17 yo makes pizza and he can do neither:lol: :thumbsup: :worthy:


true dat.....

  • RollieW

Posted July 31, 2009 - 03:42 PM

#45

yes 2 strokes do mix gas but mixing gas takes 30 seconds...how long does changing oil take?

yah, why do people say its so hard to mix gas?

  • RollieW

Posted July 31, 2009 - 03:48 PM

#46

but but, I love these threads. I'm at work, I can't ride :thumbsup:

but arguing over pointless stuff on TT ... THAT I can do :worthy:


hey start a thread about premix ratios during break in....that one never gets old:banghead:

  • 2strokenut

Posted July 31, 2009 - 03:51 PM

#47

The bike is NOT an orange 4T, in which case your 400 hour crank expiration is N/A...

Are you guys really waiting 200hrs + to do top ends!?!?!?

What is the initial investment on one of those quality, far superior orange 300's as compared to the WR's? (Don't need one of those fancy 2WD e-start ones even though I feel inferior at the staging area when they roll it out of the truck....):worthy:

This is all about preference and rider ability / wants... I've been eating pumpkins and spitting out the seeds with my WR for quite a while.... and I'm just a fat old guy with a heavy throttle hand:smirk:


So KTM 4-strokes are not reliable eh? Only they need maintenance:lol:

A 2009 WR450 MSRP is 7499 and 2009 KTM300XC MSRP is 7998. 500 dollar difference. The KTM 2-strokes are rock solid reliable bikes and guys get easy 150-400 hours on top ends. Much lighter, more power, better handling, better resale, more high quality componetry (higher quality Excel wheels, hydro clutch, etc etc) for only 500 dollars more? I also might add the 300 will have a much higher resale value than the 450. So what am I missing?

Do you really think the WR is in the same league as the 300????? The 450 is much heavier and feels even more. The 300 lugs as low and won't stall or flame out. Did you happen to read the 25 or so off-road bike test in Dirt Rider? Guess which bike won? For the second year... a almost stock 300XC. Against fully modded CRFX's and WR's.

Not saying the 300 is for everybody but you can't deny its one of the best off-road motorcycles available today.

Haha...right :banana: :foul: :ride:



About the same time it takes you to change the tranny oil on your 2 stroke :thumbsup:


Not even 5 minutes it takes. Mixing gas takes seconds.

I was soooo happy to go back to mixing after my 450.

Maybe for you...either way maintenance is maintenance whether its for a 2 or 4 stroke and this thread is getting old

Everyone has their likes and dislikes...just go out and ride :ride:


You replied and had something to say so back it up man:moon:

  • 123BigcoopDawg576

Posted July 31, 2009 - 04:16 PM

#48

You replied and had something to say so back it up man:moon:


I said what I needed too :thumbsup:

  • bills442

Posted July 31, 2009 - 04:16 PM

#49

yah, why do people say its so hard to mix gas?


I dunno. It certainly ain't "the math" with all the no brainer ratio-rite like things; heck even the oil bottles are marked with a chart anymore.

I can remember "back in the day" ya ... you actually had to be able to figure out your premix ratios .. but hey, made me pay attention in algebra class when I was in 8th grade.

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  • bills442

Posted July 31, 2009 - 04:18 PM

#50

hey start a thread about premix ratios during break in....that one never gets old:banghead:


ha ha, if this one dies out I think I will just so I can continue having fun. 4 strokes vs 2 is just one of my favorites though. It's like a bad drug habit, I just can't get enough of these posts, especially since I own both types. I even like switching sides right in the middle of a "discussion" just to keep people on their toes.

  • 123BigcoopDawg576

Posted July 31, 2009 - 04:41 PM

#51

I even like switching sides right in the middle of a "discussion" just to keep people on their toes.


Nice :thumbsup:

  • steve o 77

Posted July 31, 2009 - 05:11 PM

#52

A top end on a two stroke can be done by a 9-year old blind girl for under $200.

:thumbsup: :worthy:

Oh, and my kx125 went well over 150 hours on the last top end before it started loosing power, but never blew up. just saying:banana:

  • SJMC_DON

Posted July 31, 2009 - 05:55 PM

#53

So KTM 4-strokes are not reliable eh? Only they need maintenance:lol:


No... everything needs maintenance. KTM 4T's are more prone to lower end failures and you know it.... that's what I meant with that statement. A KTM 4 stroke motor has never been on par with Yamaha in regards to reliability. Are they bad bikes? No infact they're good bikes... but don't perform a side by side of the WR and KTM300 operating costs based on a pre-mature crank failure because the statement that it will cost a person $2k to keep that motor alive for more than 400 hrs. is mis-information at best but in reality far, far, far from the truth....:ride:


KTM 2-strokes are rock solid reliable bikes and guys get easy 150-400 hours on top ends.

That's an amazing amount of hours to keep a 2T crisp, and if it is truly the case I'll give it up to the KTM 2T.:worthy: BUT.... I have never done a top end on any of my WR's.:ride:

Much lighter,

Duh:bonk: If WR owners wanted a light bike they would have never bought one in the first place... I may be generalizing but I am guessing the average WR450 owner to be 6'+ and 210+ I think we can handle it...

more power,

Bullshit:moon:


better handling

, Yeah, the WR turns like a dump truck but I love it in a straight line:thumbsup:

better resale

yeah... everyone for some reason has to have one.

more high quality componetry (higher quality Excel wheels, hydro clutch, etc etc)

I'll take your word for it on the wheels I guess but I have seen more clutch master and slave cylinders fail on the trail than I have seen cables break....:thumbsup:

I also might add the 300 will have a much higher resale value than the 450.

You already stated that....

You're arguing that a KTM is better than a WR IN the WR forum... I get the sense you do this kinda shit regularly

Not saying the 300 is for everybody but you can't deny its one of the best off-road motorcycles available today.

It's a good bike if you like Orange 2T's:p ... I'd take a YZ250 smoker, set up for woods over it any day though. (What can I say? I've been riding Yamahas since the Hodaka shop went out of business:smirk: )

I have to go riding now:ride:

  • RollieW

Posted July 31, 2009 - 09:32 PM

#54

ha ha, if this one dies out I think I will just so I can continue having fun. 4 strokes vs 2 is just one of my favorites though. It's like a bad drug habit, I just can't get enough of these posts, especially since I own both types. I even like switching sides right in the middle of a "discussion" just to keep people on their toes.



yeah these threads are good times, heres one for the guy on how dependable the ktm's are. my buddies 07 300 with hardly any time on it had a chunk of the cylinder break off right by the pipe ( just fell off ) my 08 ktm 450 had a leaky pet cock right after i bought it and then puked a countershaft seal right after break in. hey i love my ktm but the quality aint even close to yamaha. [COLOR="DarkOrange"]let the flaming begin[/COLOR]:thumbsup:

  • motox04

Posted August 01, 2009 - 05:11 AM

#55

This thread is great...I am not qualified and the last two top ends I did were well under 800 bucks.

1) My dads 06 WR450 had 13K miles when we did his topend....we replaced the piston and rings, valve seals and valve springs....we put the stock valves back in and the stock shims...started first kick...total cost was around 300 bucks (I would like to see a 2 stroke go 13K miles on the same topend)


There are KDX200's that have gone over 20,000 miles! I have a 1978 Yamaha DT125E with 12,000 miles on it and still going strong. :thumbsup:

  • tranqwhl

Posted August 01, 2009 - 06:25 AM

#56

I'm one of the "lucky ones". I had a 2003 YZ250F, rode it for three years, valves were still within spec when I sold it. I threw a new piston and timing chain in before I sold it. The guy I sold it to is nowhere near as thorough on maintenance as I am, and she is still blasting strong (it's 8/2009 now; six years of hard use, one piston change) .

Same thing with my 2006 YZ250F; I put in a 262 kit (2mm overbore), and then after a year or two replaced the piston (just to see what a lighter weight, shorter one would do compared to the taller skirt one). Valves still perfectly in spec, no reason to do anything with them.

Doing the top end really isn't very hard. I am a terrible mechanic. I learned by doing top ends on my two-strokes. If you can do that, then the four-stroke is not much harder, just a few extra parts/things to do. I think people get intimidated, but seriously, it's a single cylinder, not that much going on in there when you get into it.

Is a catostrophic engine failure more costly? Yes, I think it would be. I wouldn't know.

So for me, compared to my two strokes, the cost of doing the maintenance did increase, but only minorly (cam chain and valve shims are my new costs; the piston and rings are a constant for both). I'm not spending money on premix oil now, but I do find that I change my oil in my four-stroke more often than I did in my two-strokes. I consider that a wash then.

I prefer not having to mix gas, so I can stop anywhere without a can. I can just head out, every gas station has what I need. If I'm trail riding for a long time, and get low on gas, I can just pull up to a pump if we stumble upon a station.

I really like the smoother power of the 250 four-stroke. I have had a 250 two-stroke and a 125. These bikes were fun, don't get me wrong. The 125 was a blast to ride. The 250 two-stroke got me into the sport. These were very fun bikes.

When I got on a 250F, my skills got better faster. Why? Because I was no longer afraid of jumping the bike. It became very predictable. It jumps the same way every time, if I do the same things. On my 125, sometimes I would be nose-high, sometimes I would do an endo, it was way harder to jump evenly, because when the power hit, it was sudden and fast. Yes I know, if I could have figured it out, I would have been a better rider today. I rode two-strokes for about seven years, and I still sucked at jumping my 125 consistently. The 250 wasn't so bad, just not as predictable and easy to ride as the 250F.

I found that I was able to start paying attention to other things, because I wasn't so focused on the takeoff any more, that part got easier. So once I figured out that the bike was more predictable for me, I could start jumping farther and trying other obstacles. I had more confidence that the bike would do what I wanted it to.

Why take the "easy way out"? Why not just work harder? I'm 37, I'm not an awesome rider, I have no future in this sport; I ride for fun, and the 250F is fun for me. I do work out though so I can ride better, longer, without being as affected. I think riding is a healthy habit, it keeps me from getting too terribly fat.

Did I have great luck with my two strokes? Yes yes yes. I rode each of them for many years before I'd do a piston. As a sucky rider, I guess I just don't tax the motors as hard. My luck has been good with both kinds.

For now, I think it comes down to; "which is more fun for you?" Some people love the rip of the two-stoke. I do too, as long as we're not jumping it. No one is wrong here, that's the beautiful thing, we have choices. As long as we're riding, we're brothers and sisters of the dirt! :thumbsup: I think it's great to have a choice. I love to get on a two-stroke every once in a while, now that I've gotten a little better, I can ride a two-stroke a little better too. They are fun for real.

Now having said all that; you guys are totally right in saying that a two-stroke is superior technology. Look at the facts! More power in the same CCs, easy to figure that one out. Also totally correct in how easy changing a top end is, yes it's pretty simple. The design is more simple. If they made one that has the exact same hp/torque curve as a 250F, didn't blow smoke (I ride indoors in the winter), and had oil injection so I don't have to remember to bring a can with me... now we're talking!

Anyway, in summary, the maintenance lie has been one to me; I think the costs have pretty much been a wash so far. If there were slight increases for me, it has not been huge. Has it been harder to change a piston? It takes more time, yes. Have I been able to do it, me, an untrained guy who just read the manual? You bet. I had an advantage though in owning two-strokes in the past, teaching me how to do the top end already. Maybe if I owned one of those 250Fs that is more prone to blowing up, this whole post would be a complete opposite. My Yamahas have been very reliable for me, rock solid.

(sorry for the book! way longer than I thought)

  • SJMC_DON

Posted August 01, 2009 - 06:59 AM

#57

kickstand

nuff' said:busted:

  • chevy power

Posted August 07, 2009 - 03:59 PM

#58

Yeah, I was quoting shop retail prices, for shock effect.

16 years on an XR600? Sound normal to me! I got 24 on my XL600R!
You can't compare that motor to any other motor made, accept maybe a Chevy small block!


I have been a chevy fan my whole life but I will attest to honda engine quality, as much as chevy. And as far as four strokes vs. two. IMO its two different worlds.

  • bigcam

Posted August 09, 2009 - 02:31 PM

#59

i see no one say any thing about how much more gas a 2 stoke burns. gas is not cheap and nether is 2 stroke oil. that would have to come in afect to.

lets say a 4 stroke takes 2 quarts of oil to fill it up and a 2 stroke will burn that much in what about 32 gallons of gas. witch in my riding life my 2 strokes would burn 2 gallons in about 2 hours and my 4 stroke would run all day on that much gas. plus the 2 stroke still needs gear oil in it witch means more oil.

i don't care witch one cost more. i just like to ride a 2 stroke when im pissed off and a 4 stroke when im in a good mood lol ether way i end up happy lol.

i don't think any one will win this one because every bike is diffrent and theres no hard proof of how long ether one will last. heck you could end up with a crapy piston and only last 100 hours. or one could be jetted better then the other witch in the end will make a diffrence.

who cares ride what you like and best of all have fun doing it.




 
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