The big maintenence lie?


58 replies to this topic
  • wobblyknobby

Posted July 30, 2009 - 09:19 AM

#21

The true facts of the matter: not all high performance 4 strokes are equal. some are reliable (Yamaha). 4 strokes get expensive after they blow up but will not blow up when some inexpensive measures are taken such as replacing worn valves, springs, pistons and cam chains.

About the time a 2 stroke 250 needs a piston, replate, p/v seals ($350), a fourstroke should recieve a piston, fresh stainless valves & springs, camchain ($350).

It is pretty much a wash unless you run your bike into the ground. In this case the 2 stroke will be cheaper to rebuild.

By far the most important thing is buying a low hour, well maintained machine, and not whether it is a 2 or 4 stroke.

  • pablo83

Posted July 30, 2009 - 10:38 AM

#22

Not to hi-jack or anything, but for a 4-stroke, how often should you replace the valve springs, and what do you look for as a indication that they should be replaced?

Remove the springs and measure the height. The shop manual will have specs on how tall they should be.

Over time the springs become shorter. If they get too short the valves will "float" at high RPM, meaning the springs will not be strong enough to keep the valve in constant contact with the cam during the valve's up-stroke. This will cause a hammering action between the valve and the cam which will be detramental to those parts.

Valve height checks are not done often because they do not often come out of spec* and checking spring height typically requires replacing the valve seals so this job is usually only done when it's time to replace the seals anyway.

*Note: one exepction to this is the XR650L engine which almost always has inner valve springs that are out of spec.

  • 2005_xr250l_thumper

Posted July 30, 2009 - 10:30 PM

#23

very good answer !!!


no body likes sarcasm haha

  • stev0

Posted July 31, 2009 - 02:42 AM

#24

Theres engine maintenance and riding maintenance.

Riding
4T (fuel)
2T (fuel + oil)

Engine
4T(Piston/rings/valves/shims) + oil every 10hours.
2T(piston/rings)every 250 hours


in the beginning I thought that 2smoke is way too much effort and thats why I turned 4T.

For what I use the WR for its perfect, but when stuff gets tight, 2T would of been the answer.

  • 2in2out

Posted July 31, 2009 - 08:45 AM

#25

Most of the 2T's I've come in contact with were hammered by owners who just rode the piss out of them and never felt maintenance was necessary. It was a throw away attitude. I went 4T because owners seemed to care and value their investment.

When purchasing my wifes quad (used), I found the same thing from quad owners. "Ride it like you stole it, and maintain it just the same" was the attitude. Simple questions like,"What type of oil did you use in it?" were answered with blank stares most often mimiced by 3-4 bowls of MJ and and questions about the cosmos.

I agree that appropriately maintained rides of either 2T or 4T are a wash. What life expectancy of the ride is determined by the attitude of the owner.

  • DGXR

Posted July 31, 2009 - 09:00 AM

#26

I feel that a thumper is likely to cost more in the long-run due to the complexity of the engine and resulting higher cost of a rebuild, even if it is typically needed far less frequently than a smoker. But I will gladly pay a little more in the long run for the wonderful torque, the meaty sound and the smoke-free exhaust from a thumper. (I'm not bashing smokers, just explaining what I like about thumpers.) Yes I factor in those benefits when thinking about long-term cost of a bike. Basically, I am willing to pay more for a bike that truly makes me happy.

  • AFJ7732W

Posted July 31, 2009 - 10:46 AM

#27

Since I started this I'll put in my 2 cents.

When I waas young and dumb, I bought an80 CR125. Lot of fun, but it went pop way too soon. I bought the wrong bike. Soured me on 2 strokes for years, and a big reason I got the 450. I think the way I ride and maintain me WR450, it'll last forever.

When Josh was 15 I bought him a little Honde Elite scooter. Remember those? Little 2 stroke scooter. Anyway, one day I went out in the garage and saw him putting regular 10W-40 in the oil tank. They were oil injected. I said "you can't do that!" He said why not? I do it all the time and rode away. That thing still ran like a top when we sold it. 11,000 miles. Josh put 7000 on it.

The mechanic at work bought an 84 (Ithink) Yamaha IT 200. It was the last year for drum brakes on front. He's never had it apart. I asked him to estimate the hours on that engine. This guy is a professional mechanic, very intellegent, very straight shooter to the point of being modest. He is pretty sure that old IT200 has 3000 hours on it, and has never had the engine apart.

  • bills442

Posted July 31, 2009 - 10:52 AM

#28

Since I started this I'll put in my 2 cents.

When I waas young and dumb, I bought an80 CR125. Lot of fun, but it went pop way too soon. I bought the wrong bike. Soured me on 2 strokes for years, and a big reason I got the 450. I think the way I ride and maintain me WR450, it'll last forever.

When Josh was 15 I bought him a little Honde Elite scooter. Remember those? Little 2 stroke scooter. Anyway, one day I went out in the garage and saw him putting regular 10W-40 in the oil tank. They were oil injected. I said "you can't do that!" He said why not? I do it all the time and rode away. That thing still ran like a top when we sold it. 11,000 miles. Josh put 7000 on it.

The mechanic at work bought an 84 (Ithink) Yamaha IT 200. It was the last year for drum brakes on front. He's never had it apart. I asked him to estimate the hours on that engine. This guy is a professional mechanic, very intellegent, very straight shooter to the point of being modest. He is pretty sure that old IT200 has 3000 hours on it, and has never had the engine apart.


At the risk of being accused of the "no true scottsman" fallacy. I'm going to have to says tiddlers are a weird exception zone for most 2 strokes. 125s DO seem very prone to blow up. They rev to like crazy 15,000 rpms, and make crazy hp for their size. If you include 125's in the mix, I'd say they would bring the "stats" for 2 stroke fans waaaaaay down. Of the very few 2 strokes I've been in contact with ( friends, etc ) in my 25 years of riding that have blown up .. I think ALL of them were 125s :thumbsup:

  • PPG Real Estate

Posted July 31, 2009 - 10:55 AM

#29

i change my 2 stroke top end every 2 years no matter how many hours, i have a 450 too, maintenance is pretty much the same, lube and tighten chain, change oil, clean filter, grease bearings. my approach to the ktm 450 is take really good care of it and hope for 8k to 10k miles before the $2k motor rebuild..... it is what it is [COLOR="DarkOrange"]A 4 STROKE[/COLOR]. 2 cents

  • 2strokenut

Posted July 31, 2009 - 11:22 AM

#30

I often hear about how much less maintenence there is to a 2 stroke, than a 4, mostly from guys on 2 strokes. However the 2 stroke guys like to change the piston and ring after about a year of riding, or 250 hours. It takes about an hour and a half to do that. Costs aprox $150.

I am going to have my valves checked in my 07 WR450 once a year. Last year they were all well within spec, so no money was spent on parts. It didn't take me any time. I paid the dealer to do it, and it cost a lot less than $150.

So, it seems to be a "top end job" vs a valve check. We change our oil a lot more, but they mix gas.

What am I missing? How is the 2 stroke less maintenence?


What 2-strokes are you comparing your WR to? 125? 250? 300? 500?

Can you tell us approx how many hours you've put on your WR in one year?

So if next year your valves go of spec how much will that cost? Are you going to replace your piston too? If your motor needs even a rebuild at 2 years with NO maintenance how much is that? How long do you plan to own your WR?

Lets just say just for fun your WR450 goes 400 hours with nothing but valve checks. At 400 hours surely you will need a crank (the cause of most catasprophic failure), complete top end, cylinder re-plate (due to worn out 400 hour piston).

Cost?

1500? You took your bike to the dealer to do a simple valve check so I assume you most likely could not do a complete engine rebuild on your 450. add 400-500 dollars for labor?

so after 400 hours or 2-3 years of riding its cost you 2000 dollars to run. Add in oil and gas too.


Now lets look at a KTM300 or hell even Llama's 427 hour 200xc.

Say you do a top end every 200 hours (lower than your estimate) and in 2-3 years you have 400 hours on your 2-stroke 300. What have you replaced?

2 top ends @ 150 = 300

or if your Llama 1 top end @ 427 hours = 150 dollars.

Maybe if your concerned throw in a crank on the 300 add 200 and labor.

so after 400 hours your KTM300 cost you:

500 dollars? You did the top ends yourself and the crank cost 1 hour labor @ 70 dollars

a whopping 570 dollars its cost you to run 400 hours on a 300. Then lets add in the 300 being a superior trail machine in almost every way over a WR450, which cost 2000 roughly to run for 400 hours.


Am I in the ballpark?

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  • AFJ7732W

Posted July 31, 2009 - 11:51 AM

#31

No, no, not even close.

My dad had an old 250 Big Red. That thng was every bit of 20 years old and never had anything done but maaaaybe an occation oil change.

Just kidding about not being close. However I do think you've undersetimated the WR450 engine by a long shot. Why does it need a crank at 400 hours?

  • 2strokenut

Posted July 31, 2009 - 12:02 PM

#32

No, no, not even close.

My dad had an old 250 Big Red. That thng was every bit of 20 years old and never had anything done but maaaaybe an occation oil change.

Just kidding about not being close. However I do think you've undersetimated the WR450 engine by a long shot. Why does it need a crank at 400 hours?


Its up to you man but crank failure is more common at high hours. You spent big money on a new 7K bike, why be stingy with it? The crank coming apart will destroy the whole engine and give no warning signs.

  • stev0

Posted July 31, 2009 - 12:13 PM

#33

What 2-strokes are you comparing your WR to? 125? 250? 300? 500?

Can you tell us approx how many hours you've put on your WR in one year?

So if next year your valves go of spec how much will that cost? Are you going to replace your piston too? If your motor needs even a rebuild at 2 years with NO maintenance how much is that? How long do you plan to own your WR?

Lets just say just for fun your WR450 goes 400 hours with nothing but valve checks. At 400 hours surely you will need a crank (the cause of most catasprophic failure), complete top end, cylinder re-plate (due to worn out 400 hour piston).

Cost?

1500? You took your bike to the dealer to do a simple valve check so I assume you most likely could not do a complete engine rebuild on your 450. add 400-500 dollars for labor?

so after 400 hours or 2-3 years of riding its cost you 2000 dollars to run. Add in oil and gas too.


Now lets look at a KTM300 or hell even Llama's 427 hour 200xc.

Say you do a top end every 200 hours (lower than your estimate) and in 2-3 years you have 400 hours on your 2-stroke 300. What have you replaced?

2 top ends @ 150 = 300

or if your Llama 1 top end @ 427 hours = 150 dollars.

Maybe if your concerned throw in a crank on the 300 add 200 and labor.

so after 400 hours your KTM300 cost you:

500 dollars? You did the top ends yourself and the crank cost 1 hour labor @ 70 dollars

a whopping 570 dollars its cost you to run 400 hours on a 300. Then lets add in the 300 being a superior trail machine in almost every way over a WR450, which cost 2000 roughly to run for 400 hours.


Am I in the ballpark?


I want a 300 now ....

  • PPG Real Estate

Posted July 31, 2009 - 12:36 PM

#34

What 2-strokes are you comparing your WR to? 125? 250? 300? 500?

Can you tell us approx how many hours you've put on your WR in one year?

So if next year your valves go of spec how much will that cost? Are you going to replace your piston too? If your motor needs even a rebuild at 2 years with NO maintenance how much is that? How long do you plan to own your WR?

Lets just say just for fun your WR450 goes 400 hours with nothing but valve checks. At 400 hours surely you will need a crank (the cause of most catasprophic failure), complete top end, cylinder re-plate (due to worn out 400 hour piston).

Cost?

1500? You took your bike to the dealer to do a simple valve check so I assume you most likely could not do a complete engine rebuild on your 450. add 400-500 dollars for labor?

so after 400 hours or 2-3 years of riding its cost you 2000 dollars to run. Add in oil and gas too.


Now lets look at a KTM300 or hell even Llama's 427 hour 200xc.

Say you do a top end every 200 hours (lower than your estimate) and in 2-3 years you have 400 hours on your 2-stroke 300. What have you replaced?

2 top ends @ 150 = 300

or if your Llama 1 top end @ 427 hours = 150 dollars.

Maybe if your concerned throw in a crank on the 300 add 200 and labor.

so after 400 hours your KTM300 cost you:

500 dollars? You did the top ends yourself and the crank cost 1 hour labor @ 70 dollars

a whopping 570 dollars its cost you to run 400 hours on a 300. Then lets add in the 300 being a superior trail machine in almost every way over a WR450, which cost 2000 roughly to run for 400 hours.


Am I in the ballpark?



NO... you hit it out of the ballpark, [COLOR="Red"]THREAD OVER[/COLOR]:thumbsup:

  • SJMC_DON

Posted July 31, 2009 - 01:05 PM

#35

At 400 hours surely you will need a crank (the cause of most catasprophic failure), complete top end, cylinder re-plate (due to worn out 400 hour piston).


The bike is NOT an orange 4T, in which case your 400 hour crank expiration is N/A...

Are you guys really waiting 200hrs + to do top ends!?!?!?

What is the initial investment on one of those quality, far superior orange 300's as compared to the WR's? (Don't need one of those fancy 2WD e-start ones even though I feel inferior at the staging area when they roll it out of the truck....):thumbsup:

This is all about preference and rider ability / wants... I've been eating pumpkins and spitting out the seeds with my WR for quite a while.... and I'm just a fat old guy with a heavy throttle hand:smirk:

  • Twitch yz125

Posted July 31, 2009 - 01:10 PM

#36

yes 2 strokes do mix gas but mixing gas takes 30 seconds...how long does changing oil take?

  • 123BigcoopDawg576

Posted July 31, 2009 - 01:21 PM

#37

WR450...which cost 2000 roughly to run for 400 hours


Haha...right :ride: :ride: :worthy:

yes 2 strokes do mix gas but mixing gas takes 30 seconds...how long does changing oil take?


About the same time it takes you to change the tranny oil on your 2 stroke :thumbsup:

  • Butta

Posted July 31, 2009 - 01:50 PM

#38

About the same time it takes you to change the tranny oil on your 2 stroke :thumbsup:


Not true....the tanny oil change in my 2 stroke takes at MOST 5 minutes. Only 1 place to drain the oil from, and no filter to clean or replace. One bolt is all it is.

My 4 strokes, on the other hand: frame bolt drain, crankcase bolt drain, filter bolts and filter change/clean. Prolly closer to 15-20 minutes from start to finish.

  • 123BigcoopDawg576

Posted July 31, 2009 - 02:03 PM

#39

My 4 strokes Prolly closer to 15-20 minutes from start to finish.


Maybe for you...either way maintenance is maintenance whether its for a 2 or 4 stroke and this thread is getting old

Everyone has their likes and dislikes...just go out and ride :thumbsup:

  • bills442

Posted July 31, 2009 - 03:12 PM

#40

Haha...right :ride: :ride: :worthy:



About the same time it takes you to change the tranny oil on your 2 stroke :thumbsup:


Maybe on an XR250 it does. my 4 stroke has got to be ONE OF THE WORST, besides 3 drain plugs, 2 filters, 2 screens; I have to lay the bike on its side to fill up the filter cups. Ya, that's reeeaaal quick and especially easy.




 
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