Blew up procircuit ti 4 titanium system! HELP!


37 replies to this topic
  • rexbond007

Posted May 02, 2009 - 06:31 AM

#21

I'm Guessing for that weld to break at the head and the muffler to fall off, on the ground.
the exhaust was not bolted to the frame and fatequed at the weld

this is a lesson for everyone to make sure the exhast system is fully attached to the frame.

  • TIG88

Posted May 07, 2009 - 01:39 PM

#22

I'm Guessing for that weld to break at the head and the muffler to fall off, on the ground.
the exhaust was not bolted to the frame and fatequed at the weld

this is a lesson for everyone to make sure the exhast system is fully attached to the frame.




Titanium is pretty funny stuff to weld. Not only do you have to have the other side of the weld completely void of oxyden and nitrogen (purged), but you also can only weld small sections at a time. Usually about 3/4 of an inch or so. After you finish a small bead, you then hold the tig torch over the weld, with the shielding gas continually flowing until its cooled below 800F. Ti will oxidize if it comes in contact with air any hotter than that.

In saying that, if you look at the first picture on the first page, you will see there is a crater where he finished welding in the middle of the pipe as viewed from the side. There are no others visible. I would say that the welder that made this pipe traveled a little too far, which oxidized parts of the weld, thus making it brittle. The fact that it cracked AT the weld, and traveled up the pipe, further supports this.

The loose exhaust could have played a part in it, but it is primarily welder error.

The first time I welded Ti, it was just a piece of 1.5" .065 wall tubing with some small metric flanges that had to be welded on the end, one with a 90 degree elbow. I traveled too far, doing what I said above, and it cracked at the weld of the 90, looking similar to this.

  • BC3

Posted May 07, 2009 - 02:01 PM

#23

[COLOR="Blue"]Too Bad you live so far away, I weld Ti exhaust pipes all the time here at my shop...That looks fixable to me......
http://im1.shutterfl.../rx=550/ry=400/
[/COLOR]
This pipe had a hole worn in it from the chain



http://im1.shutterfl.../rx=550/ry=400/

  • TIG88

Posted May 07, 2009 - 02:23 PM

#24

I can live real close if you guys need some help :smirk:

Thats a beautiful looking job. Next time I weld some I'll take some pics :excuseme:

  • davidl9999

Posted May 07, 2009 - 02:29 PM

#25

Just an update, procircuit sent him a brand new one free of charge!

Pro Circuit FTW! :excuseme:


And that is one reason I also have a Pro Circuit Ti-4 GP system on my WR450F and a TwoBros on the 250. :smirk:

(That didn't read quite right. lol. TwoBros's tech support was awesome when I needed them in '07. The PC pipe is a bit lighter and doesn't block the top oil filter bolt so that's the one I got this year.) :ride:

  • grayracer513

Posted May 07, 2009 - 02:42 PM

#26

Several of the big players in this field have customer service on this level DRD, FMF, PC, all are first rate.

  • tommyj

Posted May 07, 2009 - 04:43 PM

#27

Was the siliencer recently repacked?? I had a buddy who repacked his silencer and chunks of the packing kept collecting on the spark arrestor. Pretty soon, the spark arrestor was covered with the packing, blocking the air flow and it blew out his header cause it was so hot. Or is this even possible??

  • rexbond007

Posted May 07, 2009 - 04:57 PM

#28

Titanium is pretty funny stuff to weld. Not only do you have to have the other side of the weld completely void of oxyden and nitrogen (purged), but you also can only weld small sections at a time. Usually about 3/4 of an inch or so. After you finish a small bead, you then hold the tig torch over the weld, with the shielding gas continually flowing until its cooled below 800F. Ti will oxidize if it comes in contact with air any hotter than that.

In saying that, if you look at the first picture on the first page, you will see there is a crater where he finished welding in the middle of the pipe as viewed from the side. There are no others visible. I would say that the welder that made this pipe traveled a little too far, which oxidized parts of the weld, thus making it brittle. The fact that it cracked AT the weld, and traveled up the pipe, further supports this.

The loose exhaust could have played a part in it, but it is primarily welder error.

The first time I welded Ti, it was just a piece of 1.5" .065 wall tubing with some small metric flanges that had to be welded on the end, one with a 90 degree elbow. I traveled too far, doing what I said above, and it cracked at the weld of the 90, looking similar to this.


I would not use oxygen and nitrogen to purge, i would rather be using 100% Argon.
you do not have to give me welding lessons, i am a ticketed welder and have been welding for 20 years.:excuseme:

  • grayracer513

Posted May 07, 2009 - 07:29 PM

#29

I would not use oxygen and nitrogen to purge, ...

Neither would I. Nitrogen and oxygen is what air is, mostly.

But, the good thing is that neither would he (that's not what he said - read it again)

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  • BC3

Posted May 07, 2009 - 08:29 PM

#30

[COLOR="Blue"]I use Nitrogen to purge all the time...cheaper than argon and works just fine. Nitrogen is an inert gas and that is what you need for a back gas on stainless and titanium......[/COLOR]

  • davidl9999

Posted May 07, 2009 - 09:28 PM

#31

[COLOR="Blue"]I use Nitrogen to purge all the time...cheaper than argon and works just fine. Nitrogen is an inert gas and that is what you need for a back gas on stainless and titanium......[/COLOR]


Ummm... Nitrogen is not suitable for use as an inert purge gas for welding Ti. First off, it's not as inert as one might think.
Not to tell you how to do your job, but nitrogen contamination of the Ti weld will make it brittle.

  • mxben860

Posted May 07, 2009 - 11:23 PM

#32

Sometimes this happens if the muffler packing is blown out. Basically, the sound waves can't be absorbed by the muffler packing, so they wind up cracking your head pipe. It happened to my friend on an FMF megabomb. He now repacks his silencer frequently and has never had a problem with it.

  • BC3

Posted May 08, 2009 - 06:49 AM

#33

Ummm... Nitrogen is not suitable for use as an inert purge gas for welding Ti. First off, it's not as inert as one might think.
Not to tell you how to do your job, but nitrogen contamination of the Ti weld will make it brittle.


wow good to know thanks

  • grayracer513

Posted May 08, 2009 - 08:27 AM

#34

Nitrogen by itself is one thing, nitrogen and oxygen is air. Atmospheric air is 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, 1% argon, and 0.038% everything else (0.037% CO₂).

Nitrogen is NOT inert. The fact that there are compounds of nitrogen like nitrates and nitrous oxide proves this. However, nitrogen is so unwilling to react or combine with most materials that it can be thought of as functionally inert in most cases, and can be used as a purge gas as long as it contains little or no oxygen. CO₂ works very well, too, and I prefer to MIG with straight CO₂ over any other gas mix. Titanium is a little fussier than most metals, though, and a true inert gas like argon is a better choice.

  • BC3

Posted May 08, 2009 - 08:29 AM

#35

[COLOR="Blue"]I did some research on PURGE GASES and found that you are correct about using ARGON on Titanium but Nitrogen can be used as a purge gas for Stainless.....and that is what I have been doing with stainless.....
Good to know about the Titanium I haven't heard any feed back on the ti pipes I have welded so from now on I will used Argon for Ti...[/COLOR]
:excuseme:

  • TIG88

Posted May 08, 2009 - 11:28 AM

#36

I would not use oxygen and nitrogen to purge, i would rather be using 100% Argon.
you do not have to give me welding lessons, i am a ticketed welder and have been welding for 20 years.:excuseme:


I never said that I would use either of those.

Also I was not giving a welding lesson. It did contain alot of information on welding, but that was required for most people to understand my point. A little information never hurt, and it wasn't directed directly towards you. The whole reason of online forums is to learn and share knowledge


To Gray and BC3, you guys are correct in assuming that nitrogen is not completely inert. It is not suitable for Ti because it does infact make it brittle. The same goes for ferretic stainless steels.

  • grayracer513

Posted May 08, 2009 - 02:35 PM

#37

To Gray,...(you) are correct in assuming that nitrogen is not completely inert.

I assumed nothing. I stated that as a fact. :excuseme:

  • dholmes509

Posted June 19, 2012 - 05:07 PM

#38

Thats an awesome ending and its companies like Pro Circuit that make me proud to be a mx'er :banghead: Good gas to them for that ending!!! :devil: :ride:





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