Help fight Helmet Laws

[yamaha.dude]

Although some of the pictures on rotten.com may be made up, some of them are also real, and there was one there of the result of not wearing a helmet. It was enough to make you want to wear two... Now be warned that rotten.com is not for the faint-hearted, so only go there to find the brains-on-the-road picture if you have the constitution to handle that sort of stuff... another one from the same site is called motorbike - A Harley rider who survived, but won't be drinking too many beers in the near future... gotta love that full face helmet that we wear to protect our teeth, nose, chin etc....

The picture is too graphic to post here, or use on any driver education pamphlet, but it does get the point across...

David

[ August 12, 2002: Message edited by: yamaha.dude ]

[Bolts16]

For what it's worth, I was at the scene of a motorcycle vs. autobile accident a few days ago. The impact caused the motorcyclist to part from his Harley Davidson and land against the concrete curb, head first. This was a low speed impact estimated between 18-20 mph. Result: The vehicle involved sustained approximately $200 damage with no injury to the driver. The Harley Davidson sustained approximately $1000 in damages. The operator of the Harley Davidson died 2 hours later from the massive head trauma he suffered striking the curb. He was not wearing a helmet. His wife, after being informed of the accident, said her husband did not like to wear a helmet. Finding by M.E. Office, Trauma Surgeon, and Police: Massive Trauma to the brain cause of death. Death could have been prevented if operator of the Harley Davidson wore a Snell/DOT approved helmet. Operator of Harley Davidson at fault for running a red light.

Casualty: A wife with no husband and three children without a father.

He made the choice not to wear a helmet.

And you have the choice whether you want to wear one or not, too.

[Mark_Cantrell]

Thank Bolts. You will notice I never encouraged riding without a helmet. I only said that the government should not have a role in it. I love my country but hate my government. I dearly wish we could get it back into a constitutional role.

Cyclenuts, If there are parts to pick up, no helmet will help. Sorry. Even cops use rhetoric to help sway public opinion to their side.

To all who say that some people need the government to tell them what to do because they are too stupid. Our founding document, the Declaration of Independence clearly states that as a people endowed with liberty by our maker (after all Jefferson was a deist) with the unalienable right to the pursuit of happiness. Not the pursuit of safety. Why should we all be activists telling others what they should do? Or how they should run the world? Or use the power of the government to impose our will on others?

If you think you should wear a helmet, wear one. I do. If you think other people should wear helmets, mention it to them quietly or keep you opinions to yourself. Taking your views to the public, trying to convince or coerce them, trying to use public policy or the power of the state to enforce your views: these are just like the environmentalists who use the same tactics to enforce their views on you through convincing citizens, corporations, and the government to close riding areas because they believe you are damaging it.

And how do you feel about them being petty tyrants?

mwc

[John_Lorenz]

Next time Im in your town I think I will stop by and pee on your tree,

After all who has the right to tell me I cant, Its my pee, My Blatter I should be able to relieve myself any where any time I want. ?

[edareus]

"Death could have been prevented if operator of the Harley Davidson wore a Snell/DOT approved helmet"

Bolts16, How do you know this? Did you go back in time put a helmet on his head and he didn't die the second time? Wearing a helmet is a personal choice. I have two friends, one in a wheel chair from the full face helmet breaking his neck and the other is a vegtable from his bike landing on his head.(He was wearing a Dot approved helmet.) No one knows how this accident would have turned out if he was wearing a helmet or not. Yes, I do wear a helmet when I ride my YZ. I just think it is stupid to argue this helmet thing, it has been beaten to death. If you choose to wear a helmet so be it. I think the matter should be personal choice.

"Why should I pay for your stupid ass head getting squished between bikes and sand or head on in the dunes. Once your in a coma with head trauma, who picks up the tab "YOU" Ya right Give me a freaking break"

Ego, I don't know where you live but the last time I looked our hospitals around here didn't have a motorcycle coma wing.

I love this forum!! ?

[John_Lorenz]

Question

Where do you think coma patients go?

Answer(s)

1: If the family is well off or well insured

To a Nursing (Private) Facility until the insureance and money runs out

2: To a State Run Nursing facility That you and I pay for in medical premiums.

So again my quote from your quote

"Why should I pay for your stupid ass head getting squished between bikes and sand or head on in the dunes. Once your in a coma with head trauma, who picks up the tab "YOU" Ya right Give me a freaking break"

Why should I. SO the debate continues, why do you impose your mythical right to do whatever you want even if it means that the masses (You & Me) have to pick up the dang tab for the ignorance of others. Thats not freedom, thats called Animal Farm, and if you dont understand what I mean then read the book anbd you will understand when I Quote "Some are more Equal then Others"

This debate will continue as long as there is opposing views, Which is good. The problems occure when one side is unwilling or to ignorant to understand or acknowledge that each view has value and merit (Example Echo Terrorist Vs Dirt Enthusiast). in the example I believe the Echo Nazis will not listen to or try to understand another view, its there way of no way. When one side stops listening the debat is over and war begins.

As for Helmet Laws, I simply believ this,

People are Stupid by Nature

If we were not stupid then we would have the eutopia the libs try and legislate

[ August 12, 2002: Message edited by: E.G.O.**** ]

[cyclenut51]

Originally posted by Mark Cantrell:

Cyclenuts, If there are parts to pick up, no helmet will help.

Mark Cantrells, I'm willing to bet that if you eject from your cycle at 15 MPH, using the pavement to stop yourself head first will result in a parts yard sale. You are still funny because you actually think I care if you wear a helmet or not. Ok, one more time, reallllly slowlllly:

1) Wearing a helmet is the law where you and I both live, if I understand you correctly. Since it is the law, if you choose to violate it and you get caught, you get a ticket, and then pay a fine (maybe). You don't get fingerprinted and go to jail. There's no need to shout "Attica, Attica." It's a ticket. Big deal.

2) Wearing a helmet is a good idea. No amount of anyone's BS will change that fact. What's strange here is that this is something that you already do voluntarily.

All compassion aside, I couldn't care less about a total stranger who makes a dumb choice. Since Helmets are the law, if I stop you for not wearing one, you're getting a ticket. If there was NO helmet law, obviously I wouldn't stop you for making that poor choice. I'm not lobbying for it to be a law or not, although I, LIKE YOU, always wear one.

Your argument is weak on its face for several reasons: 1) Everyone in here who has posted thus far believes in the safety of helmets, 2) YOU believe in the safety of helmets, 3) it's not a CRIME as you and others infer, 4) You attempt to apply helmet laws as interference by the FEDERAL government, while helmet laws are decided at the STATE government level. New York borders Connecticut, and while we have a helmet law, Connecticut does not. Oops. Your FEDERAL government theory just crashed without a helmet.

"If you think other people should wear helmets, mention it to them quietly, or keep you® opinions to yourself."

Wait a minute: I thought we have freedom of speech in that constitution thing you like to talk about. OH, I get it - freedom of CORRECT speech, that which is deemed appropriate by a select few. So if my opinion makes you upset, I should just keep it to myself, or "mention it quietly" to others, while you shout your view out loud. This is complete hypocrisy.

You stress not "taking your views to the public, trying to convince or coerce them," yet you're pushing yours strongly on everyone. You hate a government which was established from the Constitution, yet you hide behind snipets of that document as it suits you. C'mon, at least be consistent! What's your point, really?

Please start a new thread on the fascist regime that insists you wear clothes outside.

I think I'm coming with EGO**** to your house, only I'm going PooPoo on your lawn. I mean, that's an unalienable right of mine, isn't it? ?

NUT

[ August 12, 2002: Message edited by: cyclenut51 ]

[Bolts16]

["Death could have been prevented if operator of the Harley Davidson wore a Snell/DOT approved helmet"

Bolts16, How do you know this? Did you go back in time put a helmet on his head and he didn't die the second time? - edareus]

Don't ask me. Ask his wife and 3 children.

[tripod]

Doing something or not doing something simply because the Government say so is dangerous. We should be motivated by common sense and what is moral, ethical, and prudent. History has shown that Governments are not always right. Keep in mind the more decisions that are taken out of our hands and into the hands of legislators the less freedoms we have. Remember this is a Government by the people for the people. A $100 or $200 ticket will not change a persons attitude toward wearing a helmet, the pressure from his family and friends will! Lets look out for each other so the Government does'nt have to.

Ride on, have fun.

[John_Lorenz]

Im living in a land of make believe

and trying not to let it show

Somday in this land of make believe

Are you going to san francisco

be sure to where some flowers in your hair

Purple haze effect my mind

dont know if its day or night

Does anybody know what time it is

does anybody really care

Cats in the craddle and a silver spoon

Little boy blue and the man on the moon.

Geez - N - Crumb Cakes ?

[cyclenut51]

Originally posted by tripod:

[QB]Doing something or not doing something simply because the Government say so is dangerous.

When you stop at the red light, that's less dangerous than proceeding into the intersection to get T-boned by oncoming traffic.

When you refrain from having intercourse with close relatives or animals, that's less dangerous than doing so.

When you don't end another's life because you disagree with him or her, well, it goes without saying what that is; that's prudent.

What the three things above have in common is that the government has laws in place regarding them. I know it sounds obvious, but sometimes laws are in place to help society. Your moral compass and mine (or his and the other guy's, etc.) may not be calibrated the same. It is true that you can not legislate morality.

However, not all of us have the gift of common sense, or knowing what is a prudent decision; ie, running the red light, driving drunk, etc. I get your point about mindless adherance (like living on autopilot), and I understand the basis of it. Truly mindless laws and petty revenue-generating local codes should be addressed by the public that they affect. Mere civil disobedience might be replaced with petition, or a stronger voter turnout, etc.

When it's a good idea and it's the law, there's no problem; but it's fair to say that the law books are more than full.

Ride safe. ?

[Mitch_R]

Hey can somebody tell me why this link doesn't work? ?

[Team_Oatmeal_Pie]

TT'ers yes this post was a major joke. The site seemed a little dead over the last week and I decided to liven it up. I liked EnduroDogs, addition about being forced to wear clothes too, as this was surely an absurd idea too. Think mental image of rider with nothing but, boots and gloves roosting you at the next cross country race.

The helmet law dialogue that followed my post, shows two clear things that are know to the heathcare industry, Helmets keep your brains from being spattered, and despite keeping your brains intact, helmets can cause broken necks. Some choose to wear and some not to.

I would also dare say that the right to choose to wear a helmet or seat belt or not, is hardly a question of erroding our constitutional rights. Safety devices provide protection, and to argue the CHOICE to wear or not to wear one is important is retarded.

[Team_Oatmeal_Pie]

Can you fit the WR baby carrier on the handlebars.?

[yamaha.dude]

What link?

[John_Lorenz]

Oatmeal

We understand I understood, But it was a worthwhile post. It does show the debate clearly from both points of view.

So with that, I dont like Seat Belts I dont thnk I should wear them. After all Why Shoud Stae / Fed Law Tell Me when and why to Buckle up.

ANd I never will buckle My kids its an infringment of there constitutional Freedoms.

Laws are made by Governments that try to impose restrictins on Human stupidity ?

[ August 13, 2002: Message edited by: E.G.O.**** ]

[Mark_Cantrell]

Nuts,

According to your parts yard sale theory, no matter which part of your body you stop with would generate a 'parts yard sale'. Why emphasize the helmet? I'm not sure why a motorcycle will generate a 'parts yard sale' at 15mph when all the falls I had on my bicycle at speeds there and higher didn't. No helmet law there. Hmmm? (later when I refer to fear rhetoric, this is what I mean.)

Not that it matters, but wearing a helmet on the road is not the law in Ohio.

Wearing a helmet IS a good idea. I have never said that it wasn't.

The original post here was offroad. Somehow this has partially evolved to a road discussion. The feds do own a significant chunk of this country (and over 80% of Nevada and large percentages of other states). Even here in Ohio, the largest most heavily used offroad area is Wayne National Forest and the feds DO require a helmet. Ohio only misses NY by about 40 miles and Ohio doesn't have a helmet law. But the FEDs in Ohio do.

I believe you said you were in law enforcement. You have a right to enforce any law on the books. Many states still have a sodomy law, argumentatively, lets say that New York has one. Would that mean that I shouldn't rage against the government for reducing my personal freedom? Would you arrest me for sexual contact that wasn't genital to genital (my sig other and I enjoy a few of those kinds)? Just because there is a law on the books, doesn't mean I should just get over it. And it doesn't mean that you should enforce it. And it doesn't mean the government had a moral, ethical, or constitutional right to pass it. In fact, from Ghandi to MLK, we have seen social benefits from disobediance and demonstrating against some of them.

Don't expect me to respect a law just because it's a law.

I think that no one, including me, has a right to prevent you from expressing your opinion. Even loudly, publicly, or to the government. I don't at all think that. I think that it is prudent to not use fear rhetoric to enforce our views on all of society by using the coercive power of the state. And I believe that the calls for laws that presume that looking out after normal citizen's safety is a right subsumed to the government is dangerous. They already ignore the letter and intent of the constitution, resulting in more power and authority for the government, always at the expense of citizens.

EGO, if so many of your citizen peers are too stupid to make simple safety decisions, how is it they have the right to determine their government through voting or have the right to arm and defend themselves? And what really is different between them and you. So how secure are you in enjoying these rights. Sorry, but your argument rubs every egalitarian urge I have the wrong way.

We have freedom of speech. In this forum, between people of differing views but a common interest, I hope this gets thoroughly debated. You and I have already made up our minds, but have the opportunity to express our opinions and perhaps others will see the wisdom of points, perhaps in each of our opinions. Outside of this forum, there are people who would, if allowed to simply vote on whether to allow or disallow riding dirtbikes, would overwhelmingly ban them. I was and still am hoping for a less energetic public tone. And I encourage everyone not to promote in the public arena ideas that would further empower the government or reduce personal liberty.

I don't consider any part of the constitution a 'snippet'. It's all or nothing for me. And when you come 'PooPoo' on my lawn, bring a copy of the constitution to wipe your ass on, the federal government does every day.

Ride safe. If you decide to.

mwc

[z4me]

Originally posted by Mark Cantrell:

...Many states still have a sodomy law, argumentatively, lets say that New York has one. Would that mean that I shouldn't rage against the government for reducing my personal freedom? Would you arrest me for sexual contact that wasn't genital to genital (my sig other and I enjoy a few of those kinds)?

Mark Cantrell! YOU are a MAD MAN! When you stole that cow .. and your friend tried to make it with the cow. I want to party with you cowboy! The two of us together, forget it!

[...from Stripes!]

[ August 13, 2002: Message edited by: z4me ]

[lewichris]

yea our government sucks so bad. We get so many fredoms. Yea it sucks to be able to have a non comunist government. It sucks to have the information technology that we have. It sucks to be able to have guns. To have rights that protect us. Yep i hate it. i think that i should leave. Every serviceman and women would tell you how great of a country we live in because they see the crap of the world. As soon as we start bitching about our country my 8 uncles who were in Vietman tell me wo shut up. they are men who never complain because they saw what it could be like. If you are going to bitch about it just leave. go find a better place. Nothing is perfect but we have it pretty good. oh yea wear helmets and dont drive drunk. If i lose another friend to a drunk driver i am going to be a man on a mission.

[John_Lorenz]

EGO, if so many of your citizen peers are too stupid to make simple safety decisions, how is it they have the right to determine their government through voting or have the right to arm and defend themselves?

Oh Bright On I rest my case look at the local governements and who hired them. I sure as hell did not vote for Gray davis or any other goof ball here in Ca......

Only judgment I see worth saying people used the heads is with our great Presdident Bush