Ricky stator upgrade?


62 replies to this topic
  • 123BigcoopDawg576

Posted June 30, 2009 - 02:10 PM

#41

This is the guy that did the 8" head lamp w/HID. Maybe someone here knows his thread and how it came out. It looked pretty at the start.
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Here is this guys thread: http://www.thumperta...ight=hid stator

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  • gdbarr1976

Posted July 01, 2009 - 08:04 AM

#42

I think I have found the right thread. You guys seem to know what you are talking about.

Hear's my issue. I have a 08yz that I put a wr crank end on, wr cdi, wiring harness, trail tech stator, trail tech 35w hid light and small battery I got from trail tech. It has been working pretty well but am starting to have some problems. It will run,the engine not the light, for about 5min then quit. I can let it sit a few minutes and it will start, run a few seconds then stop. So I am wondering about a couple of things.

1. Could the small battery be the culprit? I am going to put a larger bat in this afternoon but it doesnt feel right. With the engine off I am getting about 13.5v from the Battery. When I switch on my hid it drops to 8.5v. When I crank it up it goes back to 13.5v. Could a bad cell in that Battery be causing the problem? Has anyone tried one of these small batteries in a wr and has it worked long term? Does this thing really need the battery to run?

2. I am running the neg from the hid to the frame ground. I am assuming that "floating the ground" means no ground to the frame. Why? Could this be causing a problem? Doesnt the wr use a frame ground? When I was running the neg form the hid strait to the Battery when I touched the headlight frame I would get shocked. Runing the neg to the frame solved this. Also when I did not ground the whole system to the frame it woud start but not run any above idle. Really wish I was smarter when it comes to this stuff but I have sure learned alot!

Thanks for the help

  • OUTERLIMITS

Posted July 01, 2009 - 10:31 AM

#43

I think I have found the right thread. You guys seem to know what you are talking about.

Hear's my issue. I have a 08yz that I put a wr crank end on, wr cdi, wiring harness, trail tech stator, trail tech 35w hid light and small battery I got from trail tech. It has been working pretty well but am starting to have some problems. It will run,the engine not the light, for about 5min then quit. I can let it sit a few minutes and it will start, run a few seconds then stop. So I am wondering about a couple of things.

1. Could the small battery be the culprit? I am going to put a larger bat in this afternoon but it doesnt feel right. With the engine off I am getting about 13.5v from the Battery. When I switch on my hid it drops to 8.5v. When I crank it up it goes back to 13.5v. Could a bad cell in that Battery be causing the problem? Has anyone tried one of these small batteries in a wr and has it worked long term? Does this thing really need the battery to run?

2. I am running the neg from the hid to the frame ground. I am assuming that "floating the ground" means no ground to the frame. Why? Could this be causing a problem? Doesnt the wr use a frame ground? When I was running the neg form the hid strait to the Battery when I touched the headlight frame I would get shocked. Runing the neg to the frame solved this. Also when I did not ground the whole system to the frame it woud start but not run any above idle. Really wish I was smarter when it comes to this stuff but I have sure learned alot!

Thanks for the help


Gary, absolutely for hid you need the battery or a capacitor, but I have not had good luck with capacitors and they kind of scare me anyway. If you ever accidentally cross a wire across both terminals you'll know why! I think in your case (like mine) the trailtech stator has a floated ground. Yamahas are just weird the way the bike gets the spark from the battery and not the stator. On a WR, all the output goes through the regulator, then through the battery and on to the lights and spark for the bike. You have a YZ, so originally it had no battery and likely got it's spark from the stator........but now you have switched to a WR crank and stator designed for a WR. I'm pretty sure that now that you have created a WR electrical system in your YZ, you probably need to make sure that the spark is coming from the battery just like a WR. Trailtech should be able to help you in more detail with the wiring, but their standard stator and reg/rec combo plugs into the stock WR wiring harness for the most part. I would also recommend a bigger battery as you might be asking too much from the little nicad to handle the load from the light as well as the spark to the engine.

**** I'm going to ask this as well because this little detail caused me no end of grief with my charging system- - -Do you have a "blue" wire from your reg/rec and if so, what did you do with it?

  • gdbarr1976

Posted July 01, 2009 - 10:56 AM

#44

Gary, absolutely for hid you need the battery or a capacitor, but I have not had good luck with capacitors and they kind of scare me anyway. If you ever accidentally cross a wire across both terminals you'll know why! I think in your case (like mine) the trailtech stator has a floated ground. Yamahas are just weird the way the bike gets the spark from the battery and not the stator. On a WR, all the output goes through the regulator, then through the battery and on to the lights and spark for the bike. You have a YZ, so originally it had no battery and likely got it's spark from the stator........but now you have switched to a WR crank and stator designed for a WR. I'm pretty sure that now that you have created a WR electrical system in your YZ, you probably need to make sure that the spark is coming from the battery just like a WR. Trailtech should be able to help you in more detail with the wiring, but their standard stator and reg/rec combo plugs into the stock WR wiring harness for the most part. I would also recommend a bigger battery as you might be asking too much from the little nicad to handle the load from the light as well as the spark to the engine.

**** I'm going to ask this as well because this little detail caused me no end of grief with my charging system- - -Do you have a "blue" wire from your reg/rec and if so, what did you do with it?


Yes I do have a blue wire. Since I had a small battery I hooked it up to the neg on the battery per the intructions. It didn't work. The battery would not charge. With the black wire going from the reg to neg on the battery it all worked. And has worked fine for about 30hrs of race time. I think it is gettin g spark juice from the battery which is making me think I have a bad battery and that the small batteries just can't handle the load. I guess...I hate going to a bigger battery since the small one fits in my yz airbox real nice.

  • 123BigcoopDawg576

Posted July 01, 2009 - 11:34 AM

#45

Yes I do have a blue wire. Since I had a small battery I hooked it up to the neg on the battery per the intructions.


Brett
I think he is running into a couple problems. The blue wire being the main one. The second being that little NiCad is working over time as its not only supplying a spark but its also trying to (at times) run an HID. I talked with GB on the phone a little bit ago and I think he would be better off with disconnecting the blue wire as the bike draws enough power from the battery that the reg/rec is not going to over charge it. I recommened he build or buy on of the K2 batteries that TurnTech sells (pictured below)

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  • SXP

Posted July 01, 2009 - 11:35 AM

#46

On a WR, all the output goes through the regulator, then through the battery and on to the lights and spark for the bike.


Not on a stock 03+ WR! Approximately 80% (100 Watts - available pretty much just off idle) of the stator output is AC and is used to energize the headlight. Only about 20% (25 Watts) is rectified/regulated and charges the battery. The ignition coil is separate from the lighting coil. I can disconnect/remove the battery from my stock bike and it will run until the cows come home. In order to get the system you describe, you need to float the ground and combine the two outputs and pass that through a higher capacity rectifier/regulator to the battery.

  • 123BigcoopDawg576

Posted July 01, 2009 - 11:56 AM

#47

Not on a stock 03+ WR! Approximately 80% (100 Watts - available pretty much just off idle) of the stator output is AC and is used to energize the headlight. Only about 20% (25 Watts) is rectified/regulated and charges the battery


SXP your correct but I will disagree about the stock stator putting out 100 watts above idle. I tried my stock stator w/ floated ground and two HID lights and even at half throttle i could not get a volts above 12.7

I can disconnect/remove the battery from my stock bike and it will run until the cows come home.

Also, when you say you can disconnect your battery and the bike will run, have you tried riding it like that. I know that on my bike and my dads bike (both with DC only systems) the bike will run but not its really ride able over 1/3 throttle.

  • SXP

Posted July 01, 2009 - 12:15 PM

#48

SXP your correct but I will disagree about the stock stator putting out 100 watts above idle. I tried my stock stator w/ floated ground and two HID lights and even at half throttle i could not get a volts above 12.7


Also, when you say you can disconnect your battery and the bike will run, have you tried riding it like that. I know that on my bike and my dads bike (both with DC only systems) the bike will run but not its really ride able over 1/3 throttle.


We transferred the battery from my bike (stock electrical system) to another bike (with the BD mods) that crapped out in BFE to get it back home, and my bike ran just fine without the battery. My neighbor, who had an early 03 with the total BS starter system, gave up on the starter and removed it along with the battery and other starter related hardware, taped off the wires, and ran his bike that way until he sold it last year. It never missed a beat.

I do believe the problem you experienced has something to do with what BD does to the stator. You do know Reed Haberer, right? I remember this exact same thing happening to his 07 down in Mexico a couple of years ago, and he too had the BD system on his bike. He had to be towed in. On the stock bikes, I love the fact that the ignition system is independent of the lighting system, and provides some measure of "limp home" capability if the lights fail. The BD system seems to negate this feature, and has been the only thing keeping me from doing the mod, as I too, would love to have a HID setup on my bike. BTW, bitchin HID conversion you have going there.

  • 123BigcoopDawg576

Posted July 01, 2009 - 12:29 PM

#49

The BD system seems to negate this feature, and has been the only thing keeping me from doing the mod, as I too, would love to have a HID setup on my bike. BTW, bitchin HID conversion you have going there.


I was/am under the impression that on the WR, the bike gets the spark from the battery no matter what the stator configuration is (can anyone prove or disprove that?)

On the three bikes in the family that have "all DC systems" the only issue we have had, was a reg/rec going bad but other then that, they have been great. I would (did :worthy: ) convert to DC and I like it ALOT

Can anyone read the diagram below? I cant :lol:

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  • OUTERLIMITS

Posted July 01, 2009 - 12:48 PM

#50

Not on a stock 03+ WR! Approximately 80% (100 Watts - available pretty much just off idle) of the stator output is AC and is used to energize the headlight. Only about 20% (25 Watts) is rectified/regulated and charges the battery. The ignition coil is separate from the lighting coil. I can disconnect/remove the battery from my stock bike and it will run until the cows come home. In order to get the system you describe, you need to float the ground and combine the two outputs and pass that through a higher capacity rectifier/regulator to the battery.


I stand corrected, you are absolutely right and I think this is for the current WR as well. I meant that the modified (unified output and floated ground) stock stator or Trailtech stator runs it all through the battery first. At that point, if the battery has too much of a drain on it, it will affect the spark. I would imagine that just as you have pointed out, with the stock stator you could probably load the headlight with say a 100 watt bulb and draw more power than what can be produced and likely the engine will run fine (different circuits). This is not the case once you go to a Trailtech or rewound stator that combines all the power and shoots it to the battery. Too much load from the lights will eventually affect the spark and make it run like doggy doo doo until you shut the light off and allow the battery to charge. It took me about a half hour on a night ride before I discovered this and it was due to the way I wired the regulator/rectifier.

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  • SXP

Posted July 01, 2009 - 01:08 PM

#51

I was/am under the impression that on the WR, the bike gets the spark from the battery no matter what the stator configuration is (can anyone prove or disprove that?)

On the three bikes in the family that have "all DC systems" the only issue we have had, was a reg/rec going bad but other then that, they have been great. I would (did :worthy: ) convert to DC and I like it ALOT

Can anyone read the diagram below? I cant :lol:

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Just spoke to Dale of Trick Dual Sports. He confirmed the ignition coil on the stator is independent of the lighting coils (one of the wound poles on the stator is dedicated to the ignition system and has it's own set of wires coming out through the harness to the CDI) and is all AC. It has nothing to do with the battery. He also confirmed that bikes with the BD mod somehow end up having their ignition systems effected by the state of the battery, and don't run too well with a low/dying battery. Needless to say, he's not a fan of the BD setup:smirk:

  • 123BigcoopDawg576

Posted July 01, 2009 - 01:25 PM

#52

Just spoke to Dale of Trick Dual Sports. He confirmed the ignition coil on the stator is independent of the lighting coils (one of the wound poles on the stator is dedicated to the ignition system and has it's own set of wires coming out through the harness to the CDI) and is all AC. It has nothing to do with the battery. He also confirmed that bikes with the BD mod somehow end up having their ignition systems effected by the state of the battery, and don't run too well with a low/dying battery. Needless to say, he's not a fan of the BD setup:smirk:


I just called him too :worthy: but I didnt get off the phone with a solid answer. I still feel like there is no ignition coil on the WR. (I could be wrong I just want proof)

look at this stator(450x), notice the two "Fine" coil windings...those are for the ignition.

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Here is the stock WR stator...no ignition windings

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  • JohnnyAirtime

Posted July 01, 2009 - 01:30 PM

#53

I just called him too :lol: but I didnt get off the phone with a solid answer. I still feel like there is no ignition coil on the WR. (I could be wrong I just want proof)

look at this stator(450x), notice the two "Fine" coil windings...those are for the ignition.

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Here is the stock WR stator...no ignition windings

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:worthy: .... I think it's because Honda does it right. :lol:

(just kidding fellas, I couldn't resist. But any chance the Yami Ign Coil isn't a "small wire" winding? And is using the same sized wire amongst the bunch?!)

  • 123BigcoopDawg576

Posted July 01, 2009 - 01:36 PM

#54

:worthy: .... I think it's because Honda does it right. :lol:


Wise Cracker :lol: :lol:
Dont they have cough cough valve cough issues cough couch

But any chance the Yami Ign Coil isn't a "small wire" winding? And is using the same sized wire amongst the bunch?!)


Ok I have a better understanding now...(Talk with Trail Tech)

Stock the bike has a split system (like JAT is talking about) The split system powers the head light and then charges the battery. The stock regulator also sends power to the CDI for the spark so that is why SXP is able to ride until the cows come home with out a battery.

However, as soon as you convert to DC (whether is via float ground on the stock stator or aftermarket stator) you have to replace the stock regulator with a regulator/rectifier thus requiring the electrical system on the WR to need a battery for the spark. With out the battery, the bike will run like crap.

Hope this makes sense

  • OUTERLIMITS

Posted July 01, 2009 - 01:55 PM

#55

Brett
I think he is running into a couple problems. The blue wire being the main one. The second being that little NiCad is working over time as its not only supplying a spark but its also trying to (at times) run an HID. I talked with GB on the phone a little bit ago and I think he would be better off with disconnecting the blue wire as the bike draws enough power from the battery that the reg/rec is not going to over charge it.


Gary, I would agree. I used the same nicad on a 650R and wired up the Trailtech reg/rec the same way with both the blue and black leads going to the neg terminal of the battery and the red to positive and the lights wired in directly to the battery from there. It worked fine this way and as you say, that is how the diagram shows it on the side of the reg/rec. However, I did not have my spark running off the battery on the 650R and you definitely do now that you are using the Trailtech stator. This is worth trying, disconnect the blue completely and run the lights all the time (so as not to overcharge the battery) or maybe create a quick disconnect of that wire so you can connect it anytime you ride in the day and have no plans for the lights. The big 6 ah batteries can handle the watts put to them without fear of overcharge, but I'm not so sure about the little nicads. You might even consider upgrading to a battery like Aaron suggested above or maybe one of the new Li Ebatts that charge off the bike's system. On a YZ you have acres of space to mount it and I hear some people mount it between the skid plate and the engine although I'd be a little worried about heat there and would probably go to the airbox.

Here is what I found out about that blasted blue wire on my bike. On a static battery with the bike shut off, I measured about 12.5 volts. With the bike idling, I got about 12.53 volts (big whoopie). At about 1/2 throttle I got nothing more. It was really amazing that there was no change. The blue wire is sort of an overcharge circuit to send excess voltage back to the regulator and it really limits what is allowed to go to the battery. Once the blue wire was disconnected, I instantly get 13.7 volts at idle. I can rev the bike but it does not change that output very much until I put a load on it. With the hid "on" at idle, it drops from 13.7 to 13.3 (after about 45 seconds once the hid warms up). That tells me the bike can idle all day long with the light on and continue to charge the battery. If I add another 55 watts in lighting on top of the 35 watt hid, the voltage drops a little below 12.5 at idle, but it does not take much throttle before it is above that and back in a charging mode.

So do the cheap test and disconnect the blue and see if that does not solve all your problems. It probably will. After that it might come down to how comfortable you are in having the heartbeat of your bike run through the little nicad pacemaker you got there.

  • OUTERLIMITS

Posted July 01, 2009 - 03:13 PM

#56

Yes I do have a blue wire. Since I had a small battery I hooked it up to the neg on the battery per the intructions. It didn't work. The battery would not charge. With the black wire going from the reg to neg on the battery it all worked. And has worked fine for about 30hrs of race time. I think it is gettin g spark juice from the battery which is making me think I have a bad battery and that the small batteries just can't handle the load. I guess...I hate going to a bigger battery since the small one fits in my yz airbox real nice.


I forgot to mention, wiring your black lead to the frame does not sound right. With a floated ground at the stator, your black should go to the negative on the battery, but heck who knows, I have never looked on my bike to see if there was anything frame grounded by the factory. Also Gary, you'd be blown away to see some of the small yet powerfull batteries out these days. The 6.5 ah battery I got for my helmet light (which has more juice than the stock WR battery by the way) weighs about as much as a stapler and will fit in my shirt pocket. The technology is getting better and better.

  • 123BigcoopDawg576

Posted July 01, 2009 - 03:41 PM

#57

I forgot to mention, wiring your black lead to the frame does not sound right.


Brett your right, the black wire is ground so he will need to ground the reg/rec to the frame and battery (just like the WR):worthy:

  • SXP

Posted July 01, 2009 - 05:46 PM

#58

Wise Cracker :banana: :worthy:
Dont they have cough cough valve cough issues cough couch



Ok I have a better understanding now...(Talk with Trail Tech)

Stock the bike has a split system (like JAT is talking about) The split system powers the head light and then charges the battery. The stock regulator also sends power to the CDI for the spark so that is why SXP is able to ride until the cows come home with out a battery.

However, as soon as you convert to DC (whether is via float ground on the stock stator or aftermarket stator) you have to replace the stock regulator with a regulator/rectifier thus requiring the electrical system on the WR to need a battery for the spark. With out the battery, the bike will run like crap.

Hope this makes sense


Good research:thumbsup: We are all wiser now:ride:

The stock bike does have a rectifier/regulator combo. The rectifier converts AC to DC for charging the battery and the regulator smoothens and keeps the output voltage within a prescribed range. The stock rectifier/regulator was not designed to handle the full output of the stator, and hence the required upgrade.

  • gdbarr1976

Posted July 01, 2009 - 06:18 PM

#59

Disconnected the blue wire and swaped out the small battery for a larger conventional bat thanks to wal mart. Cranked right up, ran perfect as before, for about 5 mimutes then quit. No warning just shut off. Same as before.

Current is going to the battery. It ran perfect and started easy cold so dont think it is mechanical. Plus I did check the valve clearance just to be sure. For the same reason I don't think it is fuel but I am not ruling anything out. I am starting to think coil or cdi.

  • OUTERLIMITS

Posted July 01, 2009 - 07:21 PM

#60

Disconnected the blue wire and swaped out the small battery for a larger conventional bat thanks to wal mart. Cranked right up, ran perfect as before, for about 5 mimutes then quit. No warning just shut off. Same as before.

Current is going to the battery. It ran perfect and started easy cold so dont think it is mechanical. Plus I did check the valve clearance just to be sure. For the same reason I don't think it is fuel but I am not ruling anything out. I am starting to think coil or cdi.


That sounds pretty strange. And you have run your YZ for quite a number of hours after doing all the WR parts swap, correct? Gary, from what I recall, testing the coil is easy (resistance test) via the manual using a meter. I think the CDI was sort of a process of elimination after you have checked a boatload of other things and then the manual says to just replace it. Hopefully there is a better way for that. If the battery was fully charged and you did not have the lights on, even with no charge going to the battery, the bike should have spark for quite some time. Certainly more than 5 minutes. And I think you said in another post that you could let it sit a while and it would run fine for another 5 minutes or so. I would think that would pretty much rule out the battery. What happened to my bike when it started to drain the battery with the blue wire connected was it started to miss really bad. It did not just instantly die, but rather ran extremely ratty going down the trail until I shut the light off and then it was back to normal.




 
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