06 WR450 tapping noise


21 replies to this topic
  • NorthCarolinaNick

Posted December 22, 2008 - 07:00 PM

#1

Here's the story:

1. She was due for a valve adjustment (and was getting hard to start, but no tapping noise at all)
2. I check 5 valves and adjust 4 (too tight).
3. I re-check clearances, all are within spec (.10-15 mm for intake, .20-.25 for exhaust)
4. She starts like a dream, but makes awfully loud tapping noise.
5. I re-check clearanes. All are within spec, but tighten the widest clearance 1 notch for good measure (still within spec)
6. I re-assemble and she starts good. I still experience same tapping noise.
7. I repeat this twice more and get the exact same results.

So, as of right now, all of my valves are within spec, verified by 2 people at different times (always checked stone cold), but makes obnoxious tapping noise. I let it warm up the last time and still experienced tapping.

Unfortunately I did not document my original shim sizes. I traded shims from a friend's Hot Cams kit.

I've read from my search that these engines just make a lot of noise. But EVERYONE who has heard it, agrees that it's just TOO much noise.

I'm using flat feeler gauges. Should I get pre-bent gauges instead?

The TDC marks on the flywheel look like this: |-| | Which of the three do I line up with?

Do I really have to remove the carb and top engine brace brackets like the manual says?

What did I do wrong?:busted:

  • matt4x4

Posted December 23, 2008 - 05:13 AM

#2

Sounds like you did everything right. Flat feelers work just fine.

the H should be centered on the line, so the side to side line on the flywheel should be mid point on the cover line.

Even if you're off a bit either way it doesn't matter since there's quite a bit of tolerance before you run into cam profile changes - really only matters when you install the cams so you get your timing right.

can't really figure out how you adjusted valves without knowing your original values unless you did a whole bunch of trial and error which is a LOT of extra work.

Yes - these bikes a noisy, but you can quiet it down a bit by also changing the cam chain - and by the sounds of it (no pun intended) you probably should have done so.

If you were able to do this job without removing the carb and top engine brace, then obviously you don't have to do what the manual says - on mine (steel frame) the carb can stay but the engine brace has to get removed for the lid to clear.

  • NorthCarolinaNick

Posted December 23, 2008 - 12:03 PM

#3

Thanks, Matt.

I install the cams with the third vertical line on the flywheel in line with the cover mark. Which is the way I THINK the manual says to do.

Do you think installing a new cam chain would reduce the tapping noise?

  • matt4x4

Posted December 23, 2008 - 12:54 PM

#4

I feel a chain is needed every 70- 100 hours just so you don't break one - they do wear.
The tapping noise could be the chain - usually more a rattling, could also be piston slap....

When I set TDC I go by horizintal in the H mark, this usually puts the dots on the cam gears level with the top of the head surface on both sides.

I use a paint marker to mark everything if I take the head off so I can put it back together in one try - you can always transfer the paint marks from old chain to new - just make sure you also mark the gear and chain down behind the flywheel once you get that apart and before taking the chain out.

  • NorthCarolinaNick

Posted December 24, 2008 - 11:05 AM

#5

Dang. I bet it's piston slap. I'm going to time with the "H" mark next, but where on the "H"? I guess it doesn't make a whole lot of difference.

If it is piston slap, will I have to replace a valve and/or piston?

Thanks

  • AK_WR450F

Posted December 26, 2008 - 10:24 AM

#6

Interesting info. I have an '06 WR450F also making the same noise an have wondered whats up w/it even though it starts and runs fine. I took it to the dealer for adjustment an they said it was fine an did nothing to it. Now over 800 miles and still same noise since around 300 to 400 miles give or take.
It does use oil I noticed during changes, every 3 rides maybe 4 at 4 hours each time.
My ridden buddy keeps telling me, if it blows up, time for a 480 kit!
But I'm not ready for that yet, still to new IMO.

Mark

  • NorthCarolinaNick

Posted January 03, 2009 - 10:33 AM

#7

I decided to investigate the timing. Please tell me what you think:

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

More detail here

I drew the yellow lines for reference.

  • NorthCarolinaNick

Posted January 04, 2009 - 12:41 PM

#8

So I tightened the loosest valve, kept the timing the same. It started on the first kick and the noise is a little worse:



Any suggestions? Replace the timing chain?

  • bhiggins25

Posted January 04, 2009 - 07:20 PM

#9

Nice use of your pics and youtube!

Timing looks good to me, and that noise in the video would definitely concern me. You're 100% positive it's coming from the valvetrain? Cam chain tensioner was tightened correctly?

My best advice would be to shoot grayracer513 (mod of the YZ400/426/450 forum) a PM and have him take a look at this thread. He could write a book about these bikes and might have some wisdom to impart.

Good luck

Ben

  • grayracer513

Posted January 04, 2009 - 09:55 PM

#10

On the timing question, the "H" mark is to be used for ignition timing testing with a strobe light, and IS NOT TDC; it's a couple of degrees ahead of it. The "I" mark is TDC, and since your cams line up as they should at that point, the timing is correct, and is not an issue.

As to the noise, nice effort, but I can't ever seem to make anything definitive from recordings like that. However, it does not sound like piston slap. Piston slap is normally a single, slightly ringing sound, something like you'd get from tapping the cylinder with a hammer, that will occur only on the compression stroke as the engine fires, although it can be a quick pair of knocks, one right after the other, but still only as the engine fires, and it is normally load sensitive, knocking harder under a load, and less, or not at all, under no load.

But think, it made no noise before you worked on it, so it should be something you touched, not something you didn't. I think we need to go from there. What the noise sounds most like (again, I hate recordings, but....) is a valve train noise, and reminds me of an engine with hydraulic lifters and no oil pressure. But, you tightened the valves, and you've rechecked them.

So, what could have happened? You may have overlooked or mis-positioned one of the half-moon locating clips, which could cause noise by itself by dragging against something, or by allowing the cam it's missing from to be out of line with the chain line. One way or other, I think you need to start by opening the cam cover, and possibly the ignition cover (removing the flywheel and starter clutch so as to see the crank sprocket), and retracing your steps. It's remotely possible that there could be something wrong if the cam caps were incorrectly torqued. Use 75 inch pounds instead of 86, and run them down in three successively tighter steps, following the pattern shown in the manual.

You don't have to remove the carb (just be careful with the hot start cable), but the top engine mounts do pretty much need to come off.

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  • NorthCarolinaNick

Posted January 04, 2009 - 10:31 PM

#11

But think, it made no noise before you worked on it, so it should be something you touched, not something you didn't. I think we need to go from there.


Yep, I think I failed to trust my measurements and timing marks and didn't think about other possibilities.

So, what could have happened? You may have overlooked or mis-positioned one of the half-moon locating clips, which could cause noise by itself by dragging against something, or by allowing the cam it's missing from to be out of line with the chain line.


I've been putting the half-moon locating clips on the cam followed by the cam caps. I think this has been okay.

One way or other, I think you need to start by opening the cam cover, and possibly the ignition cover (removing the flywheel and starter clutch so as to see the crank sprocket), and retracing your steps.


Yep, I do remember trying to back the flywheel (clockwise), while the cams were out, to get the timing marks to line up. I felt some weird vibes when doing that, so I just turned it counter-clockwise, all the way around, to get the marks to line up again. When I was turning the fly clockwise (with safety wire holding the chain up :thinking: ) the timing chain did bind up around the chain tensioner, black, plastic, internal piece. Doh. Maybe I messed something up here?

It's remotely possible that there could be something wrong if the cam caps were incorrectly torqued. Use 75 inch pounds instead of 86, and run them down in three successively tighter steps, following the pattern shown in the manual.


I used 86 in/lbs and torqued from inside to outside in a criss-cross pattern in more than 3 successively tighter steps. I also make sure the cap bolts are clean and are coated with the grease/lube recommended in the manual. I'll use 75 if I have to take them off again.

I really appreciate the response, let me know if I could have fudged something up by backing the flywheel clockwise, I can't think of anything else that I may have done, but I'm starting to think it neither loose valves nor timing issues.

  • matt4x4

Posted January 05, 2009 - 06:08 AM

#12

That sounds like something to do with your timing chain and you stating that it bound up makes me wonder if it isn't something to do with one of the guides - sure sounds like something small and possibly even plastic....
Did your forward guide slide into it's tabs properly?

When you did the tensioner - you turned it in all the way, installed it then released it so it puts tension on the chain....right?

Your timing is correct - I rechecked mine over the holidays - and I thought it was the H but it is in fact the I that is TDC.

  • NorthCarolinaNick

Posted January 05, 2009 - 06:54 AM

#13

Did your forward guide slide into it's tabs properly?

I'm not sure I understand what you're referring to. So, no, I didn't...lol. Can you show me how to do this with the image below?
Posted Image

When you did the tensioner - you turned it in all the way, installed it then released it so it puts tension on the chain....right?


Yep.

  • grayracer513

Posted January 05, 2009 - 07:34 AM

#14

...let me know if I could have fudged something up by backing the flywheel clockwise, I can't think of anything else that I may have done, but I'm starting to think it neither loose valves nor timing issues.

It is a remote possibility, but if the timing chain is mishandled while off the cams, an "extra" link can drop below the crank gear and refuse to feed itself back on. Ordinarily, this results in the chain being too short to reinstall on the cams, but if the chain were worn enough, it could go back together. I can't imagine it would run like that for any length of time without breaking something, but I've seen enough really weird things not to be too surprised by anything anymore. It's kind of why I mentioned pulling the flywheel to look at the bottom of the chain run.

With the cam caps, it's also important that you be able to push them down into place, flat against the head surface, entirely by hand to ensure that the alignment dowels and half moons are not binding in any way. Don't pull them down with a wrench.

With regard to the forward chain guide, it cannot be displaced unless the head was off, so you don't need to worry about that in this case.

  • matt4x4

Posted January 05, 2009 - 08:01 AM

#15

you're right Grey - forgot that there's the upper tabs that hold it as well at the head/jug...my bad...
If a link slipped and pinched/bunched under, it could also have broken the guide resulting in this weird noise from a broken plastic part bouncing off the chain..

or

Did anything possibly fall down the timing chain slot at any point during the work you did on the machine...? it sure sounds timing chain related based on what I'm hearing - like something is bouncing along it continually.....

Do as Grey said and pull the flywheel - should give you some insight.....

  • AK_WR450F

Posted January 15, 2009 - 08:20 PM

#16

Any news to report? I'm interested in the end result.

Mark

  • NorthCarolinaNick

Posted January 16, 2009 - 04:56 AM

#17

Any news to report? I'm interested in the end result.

Mark


Not yet, waiting for a big block of free time to do some exploratory surgery (...oh, and for it to warm up a bit :thumbsup: )

  • barry450

Posted January 16, 2009 - 09:50 PM

#18

You sure it's top end related?

My brother in laws YFZ450 Quad had a tapping, I checked all valves were within spec etc and when on a trail ride it rippe the bottom out of the piston and the rod came round and destroyed the barrel and the piston went up and hit the valves.

I would pull the head, check the rod and put a new piston and timing chain in there...... there's not much to taking the head off these.

  • dl19

Posted January 16, 2009 - 10:19 PM

#19

I can hear it and it sounds a little loud. Not crazy loud, but there sounds like something. If the compression holds I woudl ride the piss out of it and call it good. You can tweak stuff too death, and it is not that bad IMO.

  • Xr650rhonda

Posted January 17, 2009 - 05:44 AM

#20

I want to know if you looked inside the cylinder and could see the piston when it was at TDC when you set your valves. I always take a rubber hose and make sure I'm not at BDC. The valves are closed at both and it would be easy to make a mistake. I'm almost sure I messed this up on my first Ninja because the valves we're tight (thinking it was at TDC) and re-adjusted them. Everything felt good when I hand cranked it, but had loud valve noise the few seconds it ran. I know it's a shot in the dark, I just know how bad it sucks when your bike's not a 100%.:thumbsup:

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