Emergency Octane Booster


37 replies to this topic
  • SPLATT

Posted October 18, 2008 - 10:19 AM

#21

What conditions contribute to pre-ignition ?, I will try to avoid them


Excessively lugging the engine, too much/aggressive timing for the fuel used,too much compression for the fuel used,carbon build up causing hot spots to name a few.

Steve

  • Regalman

Posted October 18, 2008 - 12:30 PM

#22

All you need to carry is like 1 oz per gallon of 104 , oil , or any of the othe stuff I already said.


With all due respect... I think your totally wrong. 1oz of 104 ain't gonna do squat to a gallon of gas. I'm also pretty sure dumping in oil is going to hurt rather than help, because it will lean out the mixture, make it run hotter and be more prone to detonate prematurely.

However, I do agree that if it it ain't knocking there ain't no problem. Although, with a noisy motor like the WR's, sensing knock isn't as cut and dry as it should be.

  • tweav

Posted October 18, 2008 - 05:49 PM

#23

With all due respect... I think your totally wrong. 1oz of 104 ain't gonna do squat to a gallon of gas. I'm also pretty sure dumping in oil is going to hurt rather than help, because it will lean out the mixture, make it run hotter and be more prone to detonate prematurely.

However, I do agree that if it it ain't knocking there ain't no problem. Although, with a noisy motor like the WR's, sensing knock isn't as cut and dry as it should be.


I don't really know how to prove it to you . It does not take much . I little bit of any kind of oil will not change the air fuel ratio enough to even show on a wide band O2 sensor . I am sure that DUMPING OIL INTO IT WILL MESS it up , but to mix it like say 32:to :1 will not hurt anything. I'm not saying 1 oz of 104 will rise the octane to 94 , I am saying that 1-2 oz per gallon will stop it from predetenating as bad . And also you seem to forget what oil is really good for . Don't you think a motor with less friction in the topend will be less prone to overheating?

  • Regalman

Posted October 19, 2008 - 06:31 PM

#24

Lots of people do it... search marvel mystery oil... but oil above the rings on a 4 stroke is a bad thing.

I don't care what people do, but its gonna take about half a bottle of 104 to noticably increase octane. Whether or not a WR needs it, thats the true question... but I'd never dump oil in gas to acheive the end result.

  • tweav

Posted October 19, 2008 - 07:46 PM

#25

You do understand that the main thing in 104 or a gas treatment is kerosene or diesel fuel and some sort of oil. upper end lubicating is not a bad thing to a 4-stroke just just bad when it does it by itself . oils and diesel will help clean up carbon build up . if you do put too much in it you will know because it will foul the plug . But I know for sure I'd muck rather have a fouled plug then a hole burnt thru the piston or a burnt valve for that matter.

And again who really cares how much octane is in the fuel ? What really matters it that it does not predetinate . like 1-2 oz oz of 104 or oil or diesel/kerosane and like no more then about 4 oz per . will slow the burning rate of the enough to make 87 safe . I am guess by now everybody reading this thread understands then 87 burns faster then 92 gas.

  • Alternative

Posted October 19, 2008 - 11:05 PM

#26

I'm just going to clear up some definitions for everyone, there seems to be some confusion.

Octane Rating:
The rating of a fuel which exhibits the same detonation properties as that of a mixture of iso-octane and heptane. The octane number represents the percentage of iso-octane in that mixture. For example a fuel of octane 91 will have the same detonation properties as a 91%/9% mixture of iso-octane/heptane. This does not mean the fuel itself actually contains any iso-octane or heptane, it merely exhibits the same detonation properties. High octane fuels simply resist detonating better, they can be put under more stress before they explode.
Additionally, this rating has nothing to the fuel's burn rate, energy produced or any other property for that matter. It may be the case that a higher octane fuel burns slower than a lower octane one but this isn't what determines the octane rating. It is also a common misconception that higher octane fuels produce more power, also not the case. Race fuel's may produce more power and have a high octane but it is still perfectly possible to have a high octane, low power fuel.

MON and RON:
MON (Motor Octane Number) and RON (Research Octane Number) and two different octane rating systems. They each test the fuel in a test engine but the MON rating system is a lot more vigourous and subsequently the same fuel will have a lower MON than RON. Typically a fuel's MON will be 8-10 digits lower than its RON. In America, pump fuel is rated by averaging its MON and RON (ie. (MON+RON)/2), whereas most other places use just the RON. So 95 octane fuel here in NZ is about equivalent to 91 in America.

Detonation:
Detonation is a condition which occurs under high load where all the fuel burns instantaneously (ie. explodes) instead of burning at a controlled rate.
When the fuel is compressed in the cylinder it is subjected to very high pressures and temperatures, causing the fuel to want to explode. When the spark fires, it ignites the surrounding fuel and a flame front travels from the plug at a known rate burning the rest of the fuel. Under normal conditions the fuel does not ignite until the flame front touches it, meaning the fuel burns nice and consistently.
When detonation occurs the fuel is initially ignited by the spark as usual, however at some point the pressure in the cylinder becomes too great for the remaining unburnt fuel and it all burns at the same time, instead of waiting to be ignited by the flame front. This creates a shock wave which causes the piston to vibrate violently side to side creating a "pinging" or "knocking" sound.
Retarding the ignition will help prevent detonation as the piston will be closer to TDC when the spark fires meaning the combustion chamber will begin expanding again earlier (ie. piston starts going down) and therefore put less stress on the fuel.

Pre-ignition:
Pre-ignition is exactly that, when the fuel ignites prematurely. Instead of the spark starting the initial burn, a hot-spot in the cylinder (caused by carbon build up or sometimes the porcelain in the plug glowing red) ignites the fuel. This can then lead to detonation due to the combustion chamber continually getting smaller as the piston rises, putting a lot of stress on the fuel. Pre-ignition is quite uncommon and can usually be cured by a hotter heat range plug.

Pre-detonation:
Doesn't exist.

  • cameronarrow

Posted October 20, 2008 - 08:53 AM

#27

Wow. OK, see if I have this right. Pinging is the danger to the engine because the fuel explodes as the piston is moving up instead of burning as the piston moves down. Pinging can be caused by either "Detonation" or "Pre-Ignition". Unplugging the TPS will prevent Pinging caused by Detonation, but not Pinging caused by Pre-Ignition. I think I would have to carry too much octane booster to make a difference, but I am still not sure about adding an ounce of oil, diesel or kerosene. I understand they will slow down spark plug ignited combustion, but will they prevent pre-ignition ?

  • Alternative

Posted October 22, 2008 - 04:05 AM

#28

Yes you're correct, however pre-ignition won't occur when using a lower octane fuel, it is generally only caused by the engine over-heating. The only danger is detonation.
Unplugging the TPS may help, however I doubt it will retard the timing enough to make a difference. Adding oil to your fuel will make it burn slower, however from what I've read it will also lower it's octane, so you may be doing more worse than good, although this is just speculation. Richening the carburetion slightly should help prevent detonation and if you ride it easy it should be fine.
If you're still concerned about it adding toluene is your best bet, I found this article about it, apparently it's used by oil companies to boost octane for their premium fuels, so it'll be your safest option. You'd need about one quart per gallon to boost the octane of 87 to 92, however you'd probably only need half that to be safe. As mentioned by squid you should be able to get it in paint stores.

Hope this info helped clear up some stuff for you.

  • Ions

Posted October 22, 2008 - 12:54 PM

#29

If you're still concerned about it adding toluene is your best bet, I found this article about it, apparently it's used by oil companies to boost octane for their premium fuels, so it'll be your safest option. You'd need about one quart per gallon to boost the octane of 87 to 92, however you'd probably only need half that to be safe. As mentioned by squid you should be able to get it in paint stores.

+1 Alternative thanks for the useful info and the link, I am looking forword to trying this method of boosting the octane rating due to the fact that i can only seem to find 91octane or less in and around my town.

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  • MountainMax

Posted October 24, 2008 - 06:04 PM

#30

yeah, you need WAY more then you think, the points are realy just points of a mark, after the decimal

  • 97 Polaris Ultra SPX

Posted October 24, 2008 - 06:10 PM

#31

You can run 87 just fine, as long as your not running it hard. That will cause detonation.

  • texas_hippie

Posted October 29, 2008 - 03:37 PM

#32

you can use tolulene to raise the octane leval of gas and you can buy it at paint stores. It is used to clean brushes or thin paint, I use to use it all the time in the gas tank of my Grand National worked like a charm.


You didn't bother to mention that toluene will eat any rubber parts that it contacts! Fuel lines, o-rings, ect.

  • steve86

Posted October 29, 2008 - 08:07 PM

#33

You didn't bother to mention that toluene will eat any rubber parts that it contacts! Fuel lines, o-rings, ect.


I don't believe it will when mixed at the typical ratios in gasoline. Do you have info to the contrary?

  • Regalman

Posted October 30, 2008 - 07:15 AM

#34

You'd need about one quart per gallon to boost the octane of 87 to 92


Ahhh, the thread that just keeps on giving.

Yip, and you would probably need that much or more 104+ to acheive the same resluts. Thats why in their FAQ they don't recommend doing that... otherwise they would have to admit it would take about 3 bottles... not 3 oz to do the job. :lol:

  • Ions

Posted October 30, 2008 - 12:32 PM

#35

So at what point does the ratio become dangerous to plastic and rubber parts, does anyone know?.

  • texas_hippie

Posted October 30, 2008 - 04:44 PM

#36

I don't believe it will when mixed at the typical ratios in gasoline. Do you have info to the contrary?


As a matter of fact, yes. Just go to wikipedia, and look it up. You will see this statement about halfway down the page, and I quote:
Toluene is a common solvent, able to dissolve: paints, paint thinners, silicone sealants,[6] many chemical reactants, rubber, printing ink, adhesives (glues),

I work on the AH64 Apache helo for a living. The horizontal stabilator has a rubber blast shield to protect the aluminum skin of the tail from the backblast of the 2.75 inch rockets we routinely fire. When the shield gets blistered, cracked, burnt, ect. We use toluene to eat the rubber away, as there is no other way to peel it from the skin. It's a long tedious process because the shields cover alot of area. But, within 15 minutes of applying the toluene, the rubber begins to dissolve away, and so do the gloves we use for protection. If you want to go that route though...well, it's your bike.
I'm not even gonna mention the inhalation hazzards of the stuff...just read the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) that comes with it!
Personally, if I'm hurting for fuel, I'll just run the regular 87 octane stuff, and take it easy till I get back to the truck, or the nearest source of hi-test fuel.

  • texas_hippie

Posted October 30, 2008 - 04:49 PM

#37

You can run 87 just fine, as long as your not running it hard. That will cause detonation.


There ya go, Bro! Well put...here's some gas for ya!

  • texas_hippie

Posted October 30, 2008 - 04:56 PM

#38

By the way...if anyone insists on getting his hands on some mega octane fuel, ( I don't know why anyone would though), just drop by your local airport and score some avgas. Aviation fuel, not jet fuel, and poof, you have honest to god 100 octane fuel. Just know this though...it will burn a nice perfectly round hole in the top of your piston. Been there, done that. Of course I was much younger then, and infinitely more ignorant. It really did the trick for the first two motos though.




 
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