Reed says EFI is where its at


53 replies to this topic
  • grayracer513

Posted August 10, 2008 - 08:49 AM

#21

Thats funny! Do you guys remember when EFI started to appear on automobiles? I dont recall any performance benefit. They may have started easier in the winter. I expect the same to hold true on the motorcycles.

I do. There were exceptions, of course, but for the most part, EFI was a tremendous boon to automotive performance.

The first fuel injection I remember was the Rochester FI units on Corvettes and other Chevrolets. They were all about performance, but they weren't electronic.

Later, partially electronic Bosch systems started showing up on Euro cars, and while these seem crude now, they worked very well. They allowed the car to conform to emissions requirements with fewer driveability and reliability issues than with carbs, and generally improved performance.

Some of the early attempts at EFI by US manufacturers, well, frankly, sucked because like so much else of the way the US auto industry dealt with emissions restrictions in the early eighties, they were half-hearted attempts to get around the regulations and avoid buckling up and doing something really right, at least on Ford and GM's part. The throttle body injection systems tried early on were abysmal. Chrysler just didn't have the money to do anything better than they did, but in several cases, their stuff, based on licensed Bosch systems, was the best of the time. The 4.0L Jeep inline 6 ran a lot better than any previous US engine of it's type ever did with a carb.

But by the mid nineties, GM's port fuel injection systems, introduced 10 years earlier, had become very advanced, sophisticated and effective fuel systems that delivered excellent performance, driveability, and reliability from a car whose tail pipe emissions were required to be cleaner than the air going into the engine. Nothing remotely resembling the ZO6 Corvette (7.0L, 505hp, 22mpg) would be possible without it.

Any motorcycle adopting EFI at this point in time is simply not going to have to travel the same long development path that the automotive world had to. That's been done already. All they have to do is to apply what's already known.

  • clutchless

Posted August 10, 2008 - 09:14 AM

#22

I do. There were exceptions, of course, but for the most part, EFI was a tremendous boon to automotive performance.

The first fuel injection I remember was the Rochester FI units on Corvettes and other Chevrolets. They were all about performance, but they weren't electronic.

Later, partially electronic Bosch systems started showing up on Euro cars, and while these seem crude now, they worked very well. They allowed the car to conform to emissions requirements with fewer driveability and reliability issues than with carbs, and generally improved performance.

Some of the early attempts at EFI by US manufacturers, well, frankly, sucked because like so much else of the way the US auto industry dealt with emissions restrictions in the early eighties, they were half-hearted attempts to get around the regulations and avoid buckling up and doing something really right, at least on Ford and GM's part. The throttle body injection systems tried early on were abysmal. Chrysler just didn't have the money to do anything better than they did, but in several cases, their stuff, based on licensed Bosch systems, was the best of the time. The 4.0L Jeep inline 6 ran a lot better than any previous US engine of it's type ever did with a carb.

But by the mid nineties, GM's port fuel injection systems, introduced 10 years earlier, had become very advanced, sophisticated and effective fuel systems that delivered excellent performance, driveability, and reliability from a car whose tail pipe emissions were required to be cleaner than the air going into the engine. Nothing remotely resembling the ZO6 Corvette (7.0L, 505hp, 22mpg) would be possible without it.

Any motorcycle adopting EFI at this point in time is simply not going to have to travel the same long development path that the automotive world had to. That's been done already. All they have to do is to apply what's already known.



can't argue here.

computer regulated fuel mapping that can adjust and handle every type of scenerio imaginable.

  • William1

Posted August 10, 2008 - 09:27 AM

#23

The issue I see with EFI on bikes is the need for all the sensors and the weight/complexity issues. For EFI to be excellent, it needs feedback from the engine. More than just throttle position, engine temp, rpm and in some cases MAP. Really have to have a wideband O2 sensor, air flow meter and a few others. As it stands now, most bikes EFI have a little advantage in low rpm operation (no bogging), smoother fuel delivery and easy (if you have the software) adjustment. I just worry about clogged injectors. So many bikes get used so little, thses small engine will have tiny injectors. Thinik of the number of issues with gunked up carbs and all they need is a little elbow grease and a few six dollar jets. Now it will be injector replacements..... for $$$


I kind of like the tackle box full of chokes, needles and jets. LOL, I knd of miss points too (such simple easy to work on systems) but not enough to want to go back!

  • desert-rat660

Posted August 10, 2008 - 09:59 AM

#24

fuel injection is actually quite simple. i work for nissan as a mechanic, even in the past 6 years nissan has came along way. there is hardly anything operated by vacuum anymore. variable cam timing has made it possible to get rid of EGR systems. None of the vehicles have throttle cables anymore its all drive by wire. Alot of our vehicles have electric power steering assist.
I wouldnt be surprised if one day lawn mowers become fuel injected... The technology is cheap now

  • nori41

Posted August 10, 2008 - 01:55 PM

#25

One less excuse for Chad when he lands short of the triple and dislocates his shoulder (again) :)

  • mywifefarts

Posted August 10, 2008 - 03:25 PM

#26

One less excuse for Chad when he lands short of the triple and dislocates his shoulder (again) :D


Amen to that! Cause you know he just "doesn't want to be that guy anymore just riding around for second". :) Or whatever that was that he said.

  • twenty34

Posted August 10, 2008 - 03:38 PM

#27

One less excuse for Chad when he lands short of the triple and dislocates his shoulder (again) :)


I think it was a bit more than a dislocated shoulder. Nice try. LOL.

  • jonkers

Posted August 11, 2008 - 03:34 AM

#28

i got to tell u. I missed my efi today. Took my 09 yz450 out. There is stuff i like better but man. I dont miss having to rejet the bike.

  • RCannon

Posted August 11, 2008 - 04:01 AM

#29

I do. There were exceptions, of course, but for the most part, EFI was a tremendous boon to automotive performance.

The first fuel injection I remember was the Rochester FI units on Corvettes and other Chevrolets. They were all about performance, but they weren't electronic.

Later, partially electronic Bosch systems started showing up on Euro cars, and while these seem crude now, they worked very well. They allowed the car to conform to emissions requirements with fewer driveability and reliability issues than with carbs, and generally improved performance.

Some of the early attempts at EFI by US manufacturers, well, frankly, sucked because like so much else of the way the US auto industry dealt with emissions restrictions in the early eighties, they were half-hearted attempts to get around the regulations and avoid buckling up and doing something really right, at least on Ford and GM's part. The throttle body injection systems tried early on were abysmal. Chrysler just didn't have the money to do anything better than they did, but in several cases, their stuff, based on licensed Bosch systems, was the best of the time. The 4.0L Jeep inline 6 ran a lot better than any previous US engine of it's type ever did with a carb.

But by the mid nineties, GM's port fuel injection systems, introduced 10 years earlier, had become very advanced, sophisticated and effective fuel systems that delivered excellent performance, driveability, and reliability from a car whose tail pipe emissions were required to be cleaner than the air going into the engine. Nothing remotely resembling the ZO6 Corvette (7.0L, 505hp, 22mpg) would be possible without it.

Any motorcycle adopting EFI at this point in time is simply not going to have to travel the same long development path that the automotive world had to. That's been done already. All they have to do is to apply what's already known.



Grey, based on that, the efi sounds pretty exciting on the big bikes. I sit going to take redesigned engines to take advantage on the efi or will whats available now be ok?

  • arel451

Posted August 11, 2008 - 04:01 AM

#30

i got to tell u. I missed my efi today. Took my 09 yz450 out. There is stuff i like better but man. I dont miss having to rejet the bike.


What made you decide to go with the YZF after you experienced EFI?

Visit the ThumperTalk Store for the lowest prices on motorcycle / ATV parts and accessories - Guaranteed
  • grayracer513

Posted August 11, 2008 - 07:11 AM

#31

Grey, based on that, the efi sounds pretty exciting on the big bikes. Is it going to take redesigned engines to take advantage on the efi or will whats available now be ok?

The current engines are excellent, leading edge designs as it is. There may be improvements, but they don.t have to be anything radical.

  • gillboy

Posted August 11, 2008 - 11:00 AM

#32

Come on guys when yamis go efi you all will sing a different tune.Don't knock it till you try it.All the bikes are bad ass but I can tell you this,my 08 zook is like riding a 2smoker.

  • OldSkool

Posted August 11, 2008 - 12:25 PM

#33

There are pros and cons....to EFI.

The thing I don't like about EFI in bikes/quads is adding a few mods starts to cost more. Such as adding a pipe or aftermarket intake. Now instead of buying a few cheap main jets you have to buy a power commander or do-beck device. So now tack on $100 to $300 to the cost of a pipe. Another thing to worry about with EFI becomes the electrical components needed. With a carb you have one less "electrical" thing to worry about going wrong.

Things do like about EFI was my 07 Yamaha 700 EFI motor would fire up perfectly even in the dead of winter at sub zero temps. Throttle response was perfect. If you ride at different altitudes all the time... EFI is the ticket. You should get a little better gas mileage with EFI if that is anyones concern.

Bottom line is a flat slide carb or EFI TB tuned properly both work. I've had both and have never had any real major problems with either. I do have the luxury of having a dyno to tune with at my disposal so no biggy either way. :)

  • Ga426owner

Posted August 11, 2008 - 12:26 PM

#34

Sorry you don't like it when someone challenges your skewed way of thinking. :)

p.s. I could care less who win or looses. I'm not emotionally tied to it like you are but wouldn't mind seeing RV dishing out some whoop-ass next year.



Now Rick you know I luv a challenge, without any emotional ties...but you hardly challenged anything...just the typical, historical slap my face and run....No one said Suzuki is going out of business, you missed the point completely again....
RV will be great....but what does he have to do with this conversation? He will race like a Professional MXer should..SX and MX both.

  • dirtbiker771

Posted August 11, 2008 - 12:57 PM

#35

Come on guys when yamis go efi you all will sing a different tune.Don't knock it till you try it.All the bikes are bad ass but I can tell you this,my 08 zook is like riding a 2smoker.




How many motors has Suzuki shipped over from Japan for you?

  • mmattockx

Posted August 11, 2008 - 01:18 PM

#36

If Suzuki was loosing 3000 for ever bike sold, they either a.) don't sell many bikes, b.) must have been paying him more than what you think they are
c.) are just plain stupid.


I believe that was $3000 for every RMZ450 sold when RC was riding for them. And fat lot of good it did, Honda and Yamaha sold way more 450's than Suzuki did (in my area at least) because they work better. The old saying "win on sunday, sell on monday" is complete BS in the current marketplace. Produce the best bike and win magazine shootouts and you will sell on monday.

I do think EFI will offer performance advantages once sorted, but the first couple of years it will likely not be an improvement over a well sorted FCR. For those who think it will not be an improvement, it allows use of more aggressive cams, larger intake porting and a generally higher state of tune for more peak power, while offering more control over part throttle fueling to keep the low end and midrange power useable on a top end tuned engine. It is simply a more precise, adjustable method of controling the engine. But there is significant development required to reach that point.

Too bad Suzuki had so many quality issues that were not related to the EFI, it spoiled the debut and made a lot of people gun shy of trying the new bike. Hopefully, they get it right for 09 and the KXF is solid, as well. That will be the start of the evolution away from carbs. If they screw the pooch again, it will be some time before EFI gets accepted.

Mark

  • grayracer513

Posted August 11, 2008 - 04:41 PM

#37

... win magazine shootouts and you will sell on monday.

Magazine shootouts almost never determine which is the best bike, even if there is one. At least 3 times, one of the mags has had the YZ450 turn in the lowest lap times, and yet failed to place it higher than second. In the real world, only lap times and reliability will count for anything. Anyone stupid enough to buy a bike based on a shootout deserves what they end up with.

(EFI) allows use of more aggressive cams, larger intake porting and a generally higher state of tune for more peak power, while offering more control over part throttle fueling to keep the low end and midrange power useable on a top end tuned engine. It is simply a more precise, adjustable method of controling the engine. But there is significant development required to reach that point.

This is one of the key things EFI can do that carbs can't. Carburetors depend on the air flowing through them to meter the fuel, and the jetting is done with fixed orifices to meter fuel. But the air flow at different points in the rev range can be very different with aggressive cam profiles. Air can and often does reverse directions in the intake tract at low speeds, and this totally fouls up a carb's ability to meter fuel correctly. EFI can simply be told to ignore this and deliver the prescribed amount of fuel regardless.

But the development curve isn't as long as it used to be, and at this point, it isn't any different than getting the jetting sorted out on a new bike with a carb.

  • adamdf

Posted August 11, 2008 - 04:42 PM

#38

I believe that was $3000 for every RMZ450 sold when RC was riding for them. And fat lot of good it did, Honda and Yamaha sold way more 450's than Suzuki did (in my area at least) because they work better. The old saying "win on sunday, sell on monday" is complete BS in the current marketplace. Produce the best bike and win magazine shootouts and you will sell on monday.

I do think EFI will offer performance advantages once sorted, but the first couple of years it will likely not be an improvement over a well sorted FCR. For those who think it will not be an improvement, it allows use of more aggressive cams, larger intake porting and a generally higher state of tune for more peak power, while offering more control over part throttle fueling to keep the low end and midrange power useable on a top end tuned engine. It is simply a more precise, adjustable method of controling the engine. But there is significant development required to reach that point.

Too bad Suzuki had so many quality issues that were not related to the EFI, it spoiled the debut and made a lot of people gun shy of trying the new bike. Hopefully, they get it right for 09 and the KXF is solid, as well. That will be the start of the evolution away from carbs. If they screw the pooch again, it will be some time before EFI gets accepted.

Mark


Well said! I am all for EFI (except for the increased cost when adding after market parts) but i think it is the future and there is no point running from it. Computers became more and more friendly as the market swallowed them up, lets hope the same for EFI systems, as long as they dont put no windows XP in my bike i'll be fine!! :) :D I mean i dont want to be ridign and all of a sudden see a blue screen with an error message! lol

  • grayracer513

Posted August 11, 2008 - 06:08 PM

#39

...as long as they dont put no windows XP in my bike i'll be fine!! :) :D I mean i dont want to be ridign and all of a sudden see a blue screen with an error message! lol

Posted Image

  • desert-rat660

Posted August 11, 2008 - 06:22 PM

#40

u mean windows vista lol





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