Pin count


23 replies to this topic
  • manther

Posted April 23, 2008 - 06:47 PM

#1

how many pins should be between top timing marks on stock cams for a 98 yz400

  • grayracer513

Posted April 23, 2008 - 07:53 PM

#2

Don't know off the top of my head, and I wouldn't care even if I had a 400. That isn't how the cams are timed.

With the engine at TDC, and the front and top runs of the timing chain pulled tight, the E mark on the exhaust cam, and the I on the intake should be aligned with the cam cover gasket surface on the head.

The exception is when using a cam for a YZ450 in the 400/426 head.

  • LOVERofTHE400

Posted April 24, 2008 - 04:56 AM

#3

ok well if the Intake cam is not perfectly aligned it is just noticeable that it leans in towards the exhaust cam and if you were to roll it back one tooth it will noticeably be leaning towards the back tire where would you position it at? like it is to much or to less either way it is not going to perfectly line up. The exhaust cam looks good at top dead center it is right on the money.

  • grayracer513

Posted April 24, 2008 - 05:59 AM

#4

... like it is to much or to less either way it is not going to perfectly line up.

That's the question to ask, right there. They rarely ever line up perfectly for several reasons, but would it be better or worse if you moved it one tooth?

  • LOVERofTHE400

Posted April 25, 2008 - 07:43 AM

#5

That's the question to ask, right there. They rarely ever line up perfectly for several reasons, but would it be better or worse if you moved it one tooth?



Have I gotten an answer yet I think that grayracer just wanted to let me know that DO NOT COUNT PINS THAT IS NOT THE WAY YOU DO IT and still not help me out any. I have noticed his posts on several cam timing threads and it seems to me that the only thing he says is DON'T COUNT PINS THATS NOT HOW YOU SET THE TIMING and never really gives any more input. All he did in this post was tell me that I asked the question right.

  • Kasjok

Posted April 25, 2008 - 07:57 AM

#6

Just line things up according to the timing marks. Just try to get the marks as close to perfect as possible, because chances are they won`t be perfectly aligned.

And this has been discussed quite a few times allready.

  • grayracer513

Posted April 25, 2008 - 08:10 AM

#7

I love it when people chime in to answer a question by telling you that you shouldn't have asked the question. Or that you should have asked the question the way they would have asked it.


Have I gotten an answer yet I think that grayracer just wanted to let me know that DO NOT COUNT PINS THAT IS NOT THE WAY YOU DO IT and still not help me out any. I have noticed his posts on several cam timing threads and it seems to me that the only thing he says is DON'T COUNT PINS THATS NOT HOW YOU SET THE TIMING and never really gives any more input. All he did in this post was tell me that I asked the question right.


Feeling a little irritable?

If you are that curious, line the cams up according to the marks and count the pins yourself. After that, maybe you can explain how knowing that bit of information helps you in any way.

In your specific case, ...400, I asked you a question that you either overlooked or chose not to respond to.

  • manther

Posted April 25, 2008 - 11:42 AM

#8

I'm I irritable? Not normally. But yes your response definitely was irritating. I asked a perfectly innocent question. Go back and re-read your response. It’s dripping with attitude. How would you expect someone to not be irritated with a response like that.

Don't know off the top of my head, and I wouldn't care even if I had a 400. That isn't how the cams are timed.


After that, maybe you can explain how knowing that bit of information helps you in any way.



  • grayracer513

Posted April 25, 2008 - 12:18 PM

#9

What my attitude is is something only I know. What you read into my response is your own problem.

If you and 'lover would like some help with your timing issues, since you're both working on the same bike, then what I expect is that you take the point that the pin count will tell you nothing, and provide an answer to the question I put to him:

would it be better or worse if you moved it one tooth?

Better meaning closer to lining up.

Then, we can continue.

  • Markopolo400

Posted April 25, 2008 - 12:49 PM

#10

The last time I adjusted the valves in my 400, I think it was 12 pins. But I am not at all sure, so don't only go by that.

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  • Bryan Bosch

Posted April 25, 2008 - 01:16 PM

#11

Ok, ok, ok... No need for anyone to get all up in arms here. For whatever reason you guys seem to be misreading each other's intentions, but there is no reason for this to go too far and get personal.

Written communication is difficult at best and If I had a dollar for the number of times something typed was misunderstood I'd be a bajillionaire.

Let's sidestep the non-sense and get back to the topic at hand. With any topic there will be differing opinions, including opinions provided by moderators, as we don't not allow moderators to share their thoughts (they are enthusaists too). So, let's drop the discussion of who said what the wrong way and who was offended by what.

We all know that if we were riding together and sharing a beer thereafter we'd likely have no issue with one another. Let's save the energy for fighting those that oppose our right to ride! :thumbsup:

Sorry for the interuption...

  • Wiz636

Posted April 25, 2008 - 02:26 PM

#12

*awkward silence*

*crickets chirping*

  • jayh300

Posted April 25, 2008 - 02:27 PM

#13

uhhhhh.... i have the beer the boss was talking about. It is about that time here anyway.

  • Wiz636

Posted April 25, 2008 - 02:33 PM

#14

uhhhhh.... i have the beer the boss was talking about. It is about that time here anyway.


Lol...let's crack some of those open and talk about who makes the best oil.

  • manther

Posted April 25, 2008 - 02:47 PM

#15

Nothing washes down oil like a good beer :^) Whats up jhendr3702? when are you going to go riding in DFW? A big group of 50 loosely associated people are going to be taking a two day trip to ride Muenster over Memorial day weekend.

  • jayh300

Posted April 25, 2008 - 02:50 PM

#16

Nothing washes down oil like a good beer :^) Whats up jhendr3702? when are you going to go riding in DFW? A big group of 50 loosely associated people are going to be taking a two day trip to ride Muenster over Memorial day weekend.


that could be way fun. when i brought home the trailer i went to dfw to get, the key chain for it was from red river m/c trails... I will talk to momma and see if i can do that. I have always wanted to ride there.
I'll let ya know
jay

  • manther

Posted April 25, 2008 - 02:55 PM

#17

that could be way fun. when i brought home the trailer i went to dfw to get, the key chain for it was from red river m/c trails... I will talk to momma and see if i can do that. I have always wanted to ride there.
I'll let ya know
jay


Nice! Yeah I hear it's fun. 2700 acres of it. 10 of us are really taking the trip together. But there is also this other group of 40 that we are supposed to look for and spend a little time riding with. We'll see how that goes.

  • jayh300

Posted April 25, 2008 - 03:01 PM

#18

Nice! Yeah I hear it's fun. 2700 acres of it. 10 of us are really taking the trip together. But there is also this other group of 40 that we are supposed to look for and spend a little time riding with. We'll see how that goes.


i have tried the last two years to make LMS and have not yet...
If i go.... you will have to ride with a smoker or two. I sold the 400 and bought a gas gas 300 2 stroke 6 speed. and still have the rmx.. I will try not to smoke you out too bad.
let ya know
jay
and thanks for the invite

  • grayracer513

Posted April 25, 2008 - 03:06 PM

#19

Let's go back and see if we can start here:

ok well if the Intake cam is not perfectly aligned it is just noticeable that it leans in towards the exhaust cam and if you were to roll it back one tooth it will noticeably be leaning towards the back tire where would you position it at? like it is to much or to less either way it is not going to perfectly line up. The exhaust cam looks good at top dead center it is right on the money.

First, the timing chains in these engines are rather long, top to bottom, and a worn chain can cause the cams to retard by several degrees. Secondly, no great care is put into marking the cam sprockets to one degree precision, either. But the cam gears have 32 teeth on them, so each one the cam would be off by would be 11.25 degrees multiplied by the 1:2 ratio to the crank for 22.5 degrees of crank rotation. The marks are placed so that they are near the place where they should be, but hardly ever line up "exactly". Normally, the mark will be a little off, but moving it a tooth either way makes it much worse.

The next thing that must be looked at in timing cams is that the crank can turn nearly 10 degrees without moving a cam if the tensioner is off the engine. When you think you have the engine timed, rotate the crank backward until it starts to move the intake cam, then manually rotate the exhaust cam back until it draws the chain tight, and then do the same to the intake. After that, rotate the crank forward until it arrives at TDC again. This will pull both cams into the actual position they would be in were the engine running, with the front and top runs of chain drawn tight. See what the marks look like in that position. Not doing this screws a lot of guys up.

If you can't get it it to look better in one position than another, and it has been more than 2 years since the timing chain was replaced, you most likely need a new one. The crank gear is cut directly on the crank, and is not something you'll enjoy replacing if it gets eaten by an old chain.

  • LOVERofTHE400

Posted April 25, 2008 - 07:07 PM

#20

What my attitude is is something only I know. What you read into my response is your own problem.

If you and 'lover would like some help with your timing issues, since you're both working on the same bike, then what I expect is that you take the point that the pin count will tell you nothing, and provide an answer to the question I put to him:

Better meaning closer to lining up.

Then, we can continue.


OK maybe you overlooked or chose not to respond to my question if at TDC and 12 pins between the dimples of the cams the exhaust cam is perfectly aligned with the case and the intake is slightly advanced we will give it a number say if at perfectly aligned with the case it was suposed to be
12 o'clock ok it is at 11:50 if I were to retard the intake cam by one tooth in reality adding a pin so 13 pins different it was sitting at 12:10 where exactly would you leave it since it is the exact difference either way thats why we count pins THANK YOU.





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