I'm pissed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


15 replies to this topic
  • jandmsuburban7

Posted April 21, 2008 - 05:23 PM

#1

I just wrote and corresponded with a couple of guys on this thread - "what I did to my WR 450 today - and smart guy jetting question!?" :lol: (By the way, I am not mad at people or those that helped me on this thread, just that something so simple is not working. :rant: I also am not inept, although I feel like it. I have read every sticky from Barton to to the all the jetting sites and I cant get it right. Seems to just be getting worse.)
My problem, :o had no problem low end to quarter throttle but ran best at 3/4 turn out so I changed my pilot back to 45 from 48. My AP squirt is approximately .8 seconds. I have my timing screw adjusted to approximately .6 mm gap between screw and link lever. That would be about 1 full turn from the start spot from free play. this is what I gathered from all the info. on this site. According to JD kit the timing screw should be at 2.5 to 2.8 mm from link lever to the base of screw holder link. In order to do this I would make it even further than I had before. I was at about 6mm from link to link.
This time I would say that the bike ran lean cuz the pipe discolered very quickly whereas before it did not. I could not set my air-fuel mixture screw to make it run well this time. :ride: It didnt want to run smooth wherever I had it. I will say that it stalled when turned in though. If I had it turned at 2 1/2 and had the rpm's up a little it would respond but if at idle I blpped it hard it would hesitate badly. I still have the bog at 1/4 throttle to WOT.
I am very tedious and cant imagine that the pilot is plugged although that would be my first impression on how it ran.
:mad: Anyone want to help on the AP squirt and timing of this as well as my whole pilot circuit??:thumbsup:
please help:worthy: Thanks, Jason

  • tweav

Posted April 21, 2008 - 09:33 PM

#2

I really hate to say it but . if you want it jetted right take the bike and all the jets to a dyno . It will tell you exactly whats going on the first time . then you just pop in the right stuff and your off to the races . I got tired of wasting my time and the massive headaches . It is the best way and your bike will last longer being jetted right.


It does not matter what jets are in anybody else's bike . your bike is the one your tuning . there are too many variables to use someone else's tune for a base line.

  • dazzabb

Posted April 22, 2008 - 12:26 AM

#3

Sorry to hear it's giving you so much strife Jason, you had me worried for a minute with opening comments, I thought I was in for beating!

Have you posted on the jetting forum Eddie should be able to help out.

Sounds like you do need to go back to 48 PJ if you cannot get a result at 45, but as you say it only took so 3/4 of a turn of the 48 pilot screw which still means a 48 is too large.

Can you see the squirt of fuel from the AP clearing the carb slide or is it hitting the slide?

  • jandmsuburban7

Posted April 22, 2008 - 11:26 AM

#4

NO beating for ya - just glad I didnt scare ya off!! I am pretty understanding and real good at fine tuning things normally-impatient but good!?!?!!! I know I was lean this time cuz my pipe discoloring in just a few minutes from its nice color before. Yes my squirt is good and appears strong. I had gone to the 40 lj cuz of my low end bog. No, it is just missing the slide and the duration is app. .8 seconds. I am confused on what to do on the adjusting screw cuz it seems that there are different opinions. I have both ends of the spectrum and it seems best when my gap is greater but that is against what is being stated on the posts. I am about ready to take everything back off and put my other set up on cuz it responded so well under all conditions. Big bummer-I wont do this but I feel like it.
Hey Tweav, How much should it cost for a good job and you say they will tell you what you need- does that mean that they test all jets and needles or is just based on vacuum and flow and they can give you the numbers from there. Once done there are always the variables of heat, cold, altitude, humidity, how many tacos you ate the night before......what then?? thanks, Jason

  • tweav

Posted April 22, 2008 - 04:16 PM

#5

NO beating for ya - just glad I didnt scare ya off!! I am pretty understanding and real good at fine tuning things normally-impatient but good!?!?!!! I know I was lean this time cuz my pipe discoloring in just a few minutes from its nice color before. Yes my squirt is good and appears strong. I had gone to the 40 lj cuz of my low end bog. No, it is just missing the slide and the duration is app. .8 seconds. I am confused on what to do on the adjusting screw cuz it seems that there are different opinions. I have both ends of the spectrum and it seems best when my gap is greater but that is against what is being stated on the posts. I am about ready to take everything back off and put my other set up on cuz it responded so well under all conditions. Big bummer-I wont do this but I feel like it.
Hey Tweav, How much should it cost for a good job and you say they will tell you what you need- does that mean that they test all jets and needles or is just based on vacuum and flow and they can give you the numbers from there. Once done there are always the variables of heat, cold, altitude, humidity, how many tacos you ate the night before......what then?? thanks, Jason





on the dyno they run your bike with a wide band o2 sensor . they can see weather your lean or rich at all the throttle positions . they will set it as need . your setting then will be right on for those conditions , A smart person dynos their bike in the conditions they normally ride in . I don't think taco night has any bearing on carb tuning . the good thing about doing it this way is you can get a right on base line then tweak it as needed . it showed me that my accel pump was basiclly worthless in my conditions set at someone else's setting . It only cost about 100 bucks , but I know it's some of the best money I've spent on the bike . I just changed my cam and I need to retuned mine a bit .

  • William1

Posted April 22, 2008 - 04:48 PM

#6

1) Pilot is for Idle Only. Set it and forget it. Bike should stall when fully closed or nearly fully closed, if not, the pilot is too big. If the bike does stall, but you want to make sure yours is not too small, go up a size and test. If it does not stall, you previously had the right one in the bike. With the bike at operating temp, set the idle speed low. Tweak the fuel screw for the smoothest idle. Be sure to note exactly the amount open from closed it is. Reset the idle speed. You may want to open the screw more to help reduce the popping/backfires. But no more than 3 turns. You may want to consider a second oring on the screw shaft to add friction to keep it from vibrating out of your setting.
2) Main is for WOT, again, set it and forget it. Running 3rd/4th/5th gear just shy of the rev limiter. Try a larger main, test. Better or worse? Try a larger one again? Better or worse. Progressively getting better means you were lean, gets worse mean you were rich. keep fiddling as appropriate.
3) Needle is for everywhere else. Adjust using the same method as for a main. Test going richer first. Hold steady throttle at 1/8, 1/4, 3/8's and so on. You want the bike to hold a stead speed, no popping/spitting, swiss watch like is what you are after. If you are lean and moving the clip cures things, move the clip one more position richer. No need to be on the ragged edge.

4)AP - The Black Hole or elimination thereof. Depending on your carb, there are several things you can do. On is to control the connection between the throttle and the pump. This is done most of the time with a stout oring. Then, you have the leak jet. Unless you are flat out, top drawer MX racer, you probably need a smaller one. Many here are very happy running a #40. I use an adjustable one as my WR has an alloy frame and the bowl sux to remove. The timing screw is used to try to prevent the squirt from hitting the slide. With the float bowl full of fuel, you with safety goggles on and no open flames, look into the airboot side of the carb and firmly rotate the throttle wheel. Turning the timing crew in makes it squirt a little sooner, out a little later.
I tune my bikes with a Dynojet Wideband commander. I have a bung welded into my headpipe. I install the wideband into it and go for a ride.I can D/L the ride into a pc and see the air/fuel ration and at what RPM. I adjust accordingly and retest. Might have to tweak one more time to get it perfect.

Hope this helps.

  • jandmsuburban7

Posted April 23, 2008 - 11:43 AM

#7

Thanks William for the meat and potatoes, I will be attempting some of this. My problem with all the trial and error is my neighborhood wont allow bikes and my nearest spot to ride is a ways off and very dusty and dirty. Bad for keeping clean internals.
Hey TWEAV, thanks for the info on what the pro dynos do. Never got into that before-just gotta say that I am scared to have someone else work on my bike cuz it seems that when I pay someone to do work they just recieve my money and I get my stuff back in worse condition than it was. I will look around.
I am in Santa Maria, Kalifornia - Anyone know of a DYNO place around here that can be trusted!!!!?????? thanks, Jason

  • William1

Posted April 23, 2008 - 01:06 PM

#8

You'll want to source a street tire for the rear if you have it tuned on a dyno. The roller will eat a knobby. Figure two hours shop time to do it at most. Eddie could probably do it under an hour.

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  • MaxPower

Posted April 23, 2008 - 02:57 PM

#9

I really hate to say it but . if you want it jetted right take the bike and all the jets to a dyno . It will tell you exactly whats going on the first time . then you just pop in the right stuff and your off to the races . I got tired of wasting my time and the massive headaches . It is the best way and your bike will last longer being jetted right.


[COLOR="Green"]Ignore my post Tweave
I re read all the threads and found my answer
Have you been riding your bike with the new SM set up?



[/COLOR]

  • jandmsuburban7

Posted April 23, 2008 - 03:03 PM

#10

Ok, changed my stuff around for trial and error. 170 main, 45 pilot, #50 leak jet, blue needle at #3 from top, AP squirt cant hit the slide when turned in or out. Duration is dont know now, but was app. .8 seconds with the #40 leak jet. Its problably close. My timing adjustment is as recomended by JD jetting (I called and talked with them re my situation). That is 2.75 mm. When I turned the screw out 1 full turn from there it seemed to be a little better on response but still has hesitation.
HOW did it run - Not compleetely sure cuz I dont have a place to ride it around alot. It had ok bottom from 0 - 1/8, It had good hit from 1/8 to 1/4, It had ok 1/2 to 3/4 and full but seamed to flatten out and loose my power when WOT. Dont like that cuz thats the position I am usually in - I ride my bike like a 2strke. Any ideas??? Jason

Do you mean Eddie Cisneros?? If so, where is he located??

  • William1

Posted April 23, 2008 - 04:12 PM

#11

170 main may be small, did you do the test on the main jet? Sounds like the AP, idle and needle are pretty close.

Yes, I meant Eddie Sisernos.:thumbsup:
He is in Denver CO., a bit of a drive for you.

  • dazzabb

Posted April 23, 2008 - 04:24 PM

#12

Hate to disagree with someone like William who has a full tank of gas and a stellar reputation but I think you will likely need a smaller main, 168 or 165.

I say this because the tendency is to go up maybe two MJ sizes when fitting a new end can - its exactly what i did with my GYTR and it made things worse, I went from 165 to 170 and it was rubbish.
Eventually went back to a 165 then a 162 MJ.
But as we all know every bike is different.........

Thanks for the tips on knee recovery Jason.

  • William1

Posted April 24, 2008 - 02:29 AM

#13

........
2) Main is for WOT, again, set it and forget it. Running 3rd/4th/5th gear just shy of the rev limiter. Try a larger main, test. Better or worse? Try a larger one again? Better or worse. Progressively getting better means you were lean, gets worse mean you were rich. keep fiddling as appropriate.
......


Hate to disagree with someone like William who has a full tank of gas and a stellar reputation but I think you will likely need a smaller main, 168 or 165.

I say this because the tendency is to go up maybe two MJ sizes when fitting a new end can - its exactly what i did with my GYTR and it made things worse, I went from 165 to 170 and it was rubbish.
Eventually went back to a 165 then a 162 MJ.
But as we all know every bike is different.........

Thanks for the tips on knee recovery Jason.


LOL, I see no disagreement there.....

I Rec. going larger first as it is safer for the engine to be excessively rich. Confirm it is too rich, then you can move down in sizes. Even though on a 4S, a bike running poorly due to too lean will not quickly destroy itself like a 2S, I prefer to err on the side of caution.

  • jandmsuburban7

Posted April 24, 2008 - 02:00 PM

#14

thanks guys, I have the 170 in and am going to give a real test. Taking the kids and wife out to Ballinger Canyon and will put it to trial. Hope it is better than I think it is so I can just have a good time. Ill get back with you when I get back on Saturday. The WOT flattening out seams to me that it is running too fat and is boggy. Not sure how to take it cuz as stated before I had the new pipe and muffler I was running the 165 and a GYTR needle from the AIS removal kit and a 48 pilot. After airing this baby out I would think that I would need more fuel based on more air flow!?! It wouldnt bother me to be running more efficient as stated too cuz then maybe I would get about 50 miles to a tank instead of 40 miles to my full tank of gas - Talk to you all Saturday....................Jason

  • sts475

Posted April 24, 2008 - 05:43 PM

#15

I don't know what bike you have but if it's an 07 wr450, this is a tricky bike to jet. My friend has one exactly like mine and he has a jd kit and a dr d exhaust. His bike does not want to start all of time and takes excessive cranking. Mine starts right up all the time and and runs good everywhere. I have a 172 main, 48 pilot, a 51 honda leak jet (because they were all that was open that day), an 06 yz450 needle and a light o ring on the accelerator pump linkage with it adjusted all the way up for full shot. I cut the gray wire, took out the air box snorkel removed the air injection and use a pmb insert. Everybody makes a big deal out of JD kits and all of that but, I've heard of alot of people having problems getting the 07 wr450 right. I may be able to gain some power by fooling around but I would rather the bike be user friendly than drive myself crazy and it has more than enough power for me. To each his own though..........

Good Luck!

STS.

  • jandmsuburban7

Posted April 26, 2008 - 08:40 PM

#16

Hey All, back from Ballinger and I am a sooooar puppy! I used to be able to ride hard for 12 or 14 hours a day and not even get tired - now I ride for 15 minutes and I am whooped!! Not to mention new suspension vs. old old suspension. THE BIKE - it is running acceptable now. I jetted it once out there and it sounds lean cuz of the popping but runs as though it was rich. The new eshaust is has some unburnt fuel around the tip of the canister which also would make me to think that it is a tad rich. I, at this time have the 168 m, blue #3 needle, 48 pilot, 40 leak, 1 1/4 turn out zipty, JD recomended 2.7 mm gap on the AP. It has something that is not right but one great thing is that down low when I put the 40 leak jet and the 48 back in with the blue needle that gave it the hit I was looking for. I at about 4 MPH Idling it can twist the throttle all the way and it gives absolutely no hesitation. Works real good for trails and stuff. It just seems to peter out faster than I think it should. I dont know if I shoud drop another main or go back up to the 170. I didnt do any more wrenching out there cuz I was sick of it and I wanted to ride.
Thursday -camp set up and kids rode
Friday - Rejetted - friends get there - rode about 65 miles
Saturday - spent with kids riding trails and loaded and now giving report on 2006 WR 450f (for STS).

Talk to ya all later, Jason




 
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