1368 needle?


18 replies to this topic
  • AV8R

Posted March 17, 2008 - 01:51 PM

#1

I'm looking for a 1368 needle for a 2000 CR250. First thing I notice is that I have to get the needle from a 99 CR250 as the 2000 does not have the option of the 1368.
The two choices in the 1368 are the; 1368DKA and the 1368EKA.
Anybody know the difference?
If anybody has this needle in a 2000 CR250 which one are you using?
Also where is a good place to get one. The places I checked on line wanted more for shipping than the needle cost. :excuseme:
Here locally they want $25 for one. :confused: That seems a bit high to me. I can get new needles for my YZ for $8-$10.

  • skipn8r

Posted March 17, 2008 - 03:10 PM

#2

There are at least a few different 1368 Honda needles. The R1368LS, R1368MS and R1368NS were single taper needles available for the 1990 - 1998 CR250's - and maybe other bikes. The R1368DKA and R1368EKA are multi-taper needles available for the 1999 CR, as you found. Faded's copy of Honda sales literature info indicates they are dual taper designs. The same literature indicates that the 2000 needles are triple-taper.

Both the R1368DKA and R1368EKA are 2.685 mm diameter and the EKA is cut 1/2 clip leaner than the DKA needle. If you have the JD Spreadsheet (excellent purchase), the R1368EKA code is N-A-ZX1. Looking at the JD Spreadsheet, the R1368EKA is very similar to the NOZD needle up to about 1/2 throttle where the NOZD begins getting richer.

If you're after a single taper needle, there should be a Keihin equivalent. You can buy singles through Carb Parts Warehouse, but shipping is still pretty steep for just a needle. If you're after a dual-taper, I think Honda and Ebay are your only choices. Fortunately, I have a couple of local Honda dealers to choose from and I worked out a deal with the closest one to match Service Honda prices - I just promised to buy all my OEM parts through them.

  • hallsy

Posted March 18, 2008 - 05:41 AM

#3

Skipn8r I have the JD spreadsheet but can't figure out how this honda stuff works? :confused: Where did you find that 1368EKA = N-A-ZX1? When I input that I get this note: column 3 input not in database! I assume column 3 = the ZX1. I'd like to compare the honda needles to others like (N3E_) but can't figure this out, please help!

  • skipn8r

Posted March 18, 2008 - 06:34 AM

#4

Where did you find that 1368EKA = N-A-ZX1?

Directly from James:

N-A-ZX1 = R1368EKA
N-A-ZX2 = R1369EKA
N-A-ZX3 = R1370EKA
N-A-ZX4 = R1371EKA

When I input that I get this note: column 3 input not in database!

I get the same message...

I assume column 3 = the ZX1.

Yep.

  • AV8R

Posted March 18, 2008 - 08:43 AM

#5

If you're after a single taper needle, there should be a Keihin equivalent. You can buy singles through Carb Parts Warehouse, but shipping is still pretty steep for just a needle. If you're after a dual-taper, I think Honda and Ebay are your only choices.


Thanks for the info skipn8r. In all honesty I'm not sure what I'm after. I do know that the bike seems to be rich down low, ok in the midrange, and lean near the top (all refering to the range of the needle). I have simply read here that some people reccomend the 1368 but were not more specific than that. I really do not know very much about these needles. I have managed to stumble on the right ones for my YZ's but this is my first attempt at a Honda.
Tripple taper:crazy: I have enough trouble with a single taper much less anything more.

This spread sheet you are refering to , I can get it at the JD website? I looked around there and did not find it unless it is what they call the "jetting guide".

N-A-ZX1 = R1368EKA
N-A-ZX2 = R1369EKA
N-A-ZX3 = R1370EKA
N-A-ZX4 = R1371EKA


These designations what do they mean? Are they refering to a JD number for needles? I'm trying to corolate them with numbers like N3CW, N3EW etc.
I also went to this site
http://www.psep.biz/...jet_needles.htm

to find a needle but got lost in trying to figure it out. It seems different places and manufacturers have different designations for the same needles. Or are all these needles different?

Sorry to be so dense on the subject. Any clarity you can add to my haze will help.

  • skipn8r

Posted March 18, 2008 - 10:29 AM

#6

Thanks for the info skipn8r. In all honesty I'm not sure what I'm after. I do know that the bike seems to be rich down low, ok in the midrange, and lean near the top (all refering to the range of the needle).

Well that's a start. What carb, jetting, reed valve, elevation and temps are you running?

This spread sheet you are refering to , I can get it at the JD website? I looked around there and did not find it unless it is what they call the "jetting guide".

That's the one. You can also get it at the TT Store.

These designations what do they mean? Are they refering to a JD number for needles? I'm trying to corolate them with numbers like N3CW, N3EW etc.

The R13XXXKA are the codes stamped on the needles themselves. The N-A-xxx codes are what you enter in the three needle data columns in the Jetting Guide. The Guide is great, but there are a few needles (like the Honda R13XXXKA's) that you have to know the code for. The YZ NXXX needle codes are just entered as shown on the needle (N-3-EW, for example).


I also went to this site
http://www.psep.biz/...jet_needles.htm

to find a needle but got lost in trying to figure it out. It seems different places and manufacturers have different designations for the same needles. Or are all these needles different?

There are three basic groups of Keihin needles; the OEM needles (Honda, Yamaha, some single-taper, some multi-taper), the JD needles (triple-taper) and the Keihin needles (all single-taper). Keihin needles are desginated by three letters (eg., CGJ). The OEM needles can have all sorts of designations (like the '00 CR250 needles :confused:). The Keihin site has a decent page that shows some OEM-to-Keihin single taper needle code translations. On the lower half of the page you can see that the R1368N (single-taper) OEM Honda needle is exactly the same as a Keihin CGJ needle.

Sorry to be so dense on the subject. Any clarity you can add to my haze will help.

I don't think anyone outside JD and Keihin has a good handle on all the needle/code issues :excuseme: ...

  • AV8R

Posted March 18, 2008 - 12:09 PM

#7

Well that's a start. What carb, jetting, reed valve, elevation and temps are you running?


Keihin PWK00B

#165 Main ( little lean below 45F)
#50 Slow jet (for winter) hmmm.. seems big
3/4 out on air screw @ 45F
top clip on jet needle

Boyesen power reeds
3,000-3,400 feet
Average temp now 45-50 degrees F

I don't know why I didn't see this before, but I see that I may be able to clean up the bottom by dropping the slow jet to a 48 or 45. Then maybe I could try the 2nd clip position on the needle The main should already be lean enough. Even though the slow jet seems big as I recall anything leaner or with the air screw farther out it would get a hanging idle.

I did have a hard time getting a decent leak down test done after the top end due to the Powervalve linkage wanting to leak into the tranny case. But did not find any air leaks other than that. It was about 1/2 psi per minute down to 4 psi then held. More than I like to see really but thought it may be good enough. Could be that the powervalve linkage letting air in is nessecitating the large slow jet?:excuseme: I really don't like the power valve set up on this Honda.

Maybe I'm jumping the gun on the needle just a little. I remember messing with the needle last fall and anything but the top clip position and it would blubber. But this is still winter so...
I usually don't ride the bike It's just that my YZ is down for cylinder repair so I have been pulling rank on my son and riding his bike.

There are three basic groups of Keihin needles


Great, I'm glad they make it easy.:excuseme:
I'll take my newly aquired information and see what damage I can do.:sweden:
May have to get that jetting guide too.
Thank you very much for all your info.
Anything else you come up with I'd be glad to know it too.:confused:

  • skipn8r

Posted March 18, 2008 - 06:13 PM

#8

If you have these, try:

Slow jet: 45 (even try a 42 if you are familiar with lean symptoms)
A/S: 1.5 - 2 turns (slightly less with the 42)
Needle: A715/289R (stock '00)
Clip: 2
Main: 170

Not sure how close that'll get you, but you might be closer...

  • AV8R

Posted March 19, 2008 - 07:24 AM

#9

Those look pretty good. Exactly what I was going to try today except the main. For now I'll leave it at 165 and go to 170 if it seems to be a problem.

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  • AV8R

Posted March 19, 2008 - 12:59 PM

#10

Well I must have changed the jetting some time ago and not written it down, maybe after the recent top end. Anyhow i discovered that my jetting was:

Main #162 changed it to a #165
Slow #45 left it alone
Needle clip #1 left it alone
Air screw 3/4 out left it alone

So I guess I will try a playing with the air screw, but I don't think it will give me the results I'm looking for.

I think what i would like to try is a leaner needle for this year. However with it being a tripple taper I'm not sure what to change to get the desired results. What i would like to have if it was a single taper is just a larger straight portion with same taper until the very tip then make that thinner.

Is this where the jetting guide will help me out?

The stock needle is A715/289R

I have many options for different needles for this year but am unable to decipher how the tapers or clip positions differ.

The needles start at A685/289R and the first three numbers progress by ten up to A745/289R
Then then the same first three number series followed by /294R series. ie A685/294R through A745/294R

Unfortunately I have a Clymer manual for this bike so it has no helpful suggestions for leaner or richer needle numbers like my OEM YZ manual has.

There must be a way to decipher these Honda codes.

I Know, I'm going about this the hard way are'nt I.

  • skipn8r

Posted March 19, 2008 - 04:56 PM

#11

I think what i would like to try is a leaner needle for this year. However with it being a tripple taper I'm not sure what to change to get the desired results. What i would like to have if it was a single taper is just a larger straight portion with same taper until the very tip then make that thinner.

Is this where the jetting guide will help me out?

Yes, but there are very limited '00 needles in the guide - only 1 I believe.

There must be a way to decipher these Honda codes.

I've never seen it documented, but I'd guess the 685 - 745 refer to needle diameters; 2.685 mm - 2.745 mm. I'd further guess that the 289 and 294 refer to clip position - that the 294 is cut 1/2 clip leaner than the 289. That would be similar to the '99 optional needle set.

Before you get new needles, have you thought about trying a 42 slow jet and your stock needle in the 2nd or 3rd position?

  • AV8R

Posted March 20, 2008 - 07:35 AM

#12

Before you get new needles, have you thought about trying a 42 slow jet and your stock needle in the 2nd or 3rd position?


Hadn't though of that yet. I'll give it a try and see what happens. Should be riding this weekend.

I've never seen it documented, but I'd guess the 685 - 745 refer to needle diameters; 2.685 mm - 2.745 mm. I'd further guess that the 289 and 294 refer to clip position - that the 294 is cut 1/2 clip leaner than the 289.


I'd say that is a very good conclusion. I'm going to measure the needle in it now and see if the numbers match up.

  • hallsy

Posted March 20, 2008 - 03:18 PM

#13

Well I must have changed the jetting some time ago and not written it down, maybe after the recent top end. Anyhow i discovered that my jetting was:

Main #162 changed it to a #165
Slow #45 left it alone
Needle clip #1 left it alone
Air screw 3/4 out left it alone

So I guess I will try a playing with the air screw, but I don't think it will give me the results I'm looking for.

I think what i would like to try is a leaner needle for this year. However with it being a tripple taper I'm not sure what to change to get the desired results. What i would like to have if it was a single taper is just a larger straight portion with same taper until the very tip then make that thinner.

Is this where the jetting guide will help me out?


While the jetting guide can help you out with many comparisons including mains, pilots, clip positions, needles, temperatures, and altitudes, it does not contain all the needles available from all the manufacturers or the JD needles. That can be frustrating at times, still I feel it was well worth the $25 and has proven to be a great tool and learning experience for me.

Skipn8r thanks for the needle codes. :confused: Any chance you have the codes for the 2000' Honda needles?

  • skipn8r

Posted March 20, 2008 - 05:37 PM

#14

That can be frustrating at times, still I feel it was well worth the $25 and has proven to be a great tool and learning experience for me.

:confused:

Any chance you have the codes for the 2000' Honda needles?

The stock A715/289R isn't in the Guide, but the A705/289R = N-A-XY. You'll have to extrapolate from there...

Posted Image

  • AV8R

Posted March 22, 2008 - 07:55 AM

#15

I've never seen it documented, but I'd guess the 685 - 745 refer to needle diameters; 2.685 mm - 2.745 mm. I'd further guess that the 289 and 294 refer to clip position - that the 294 is cut 1/2 clip leaner than the 289. That would be similar to the '99 optional needle set

Well to the best of my digital calipers ability it appears that you are correct on the stock needle size corolation with the needle numbers.
My calipers only measure down to .01mm instead of .001mm so it is hard to be exactly precise.

Now I have something to go on. Thank you very much for your help skipn8r.:confused:

  • hallsy

Posted March 22, 2008 - 01:20 PM

#16

:excuseme:

The stock A715/289R isn't in the Guide, but the A705/289R = N-A-XY. You'll have to extrapolate from there...


EXTRAPOLATE ??? I can barely say it! HaHa

Ok I see why I'm so confused, the guide says - 99' CR 250 (last Honda Keihin A705..., use code N A XY). So after reading this thread again and after looking at the parts fiche I see where the 99' used R1368DKA/EKA thru R1372DKA/EKA and the 00' used A685/289R/294R thru A745/289R/294R. I ordered the Honda service manual for my 01' but now realize it covers both the 00' and the 01' model years. In there it shows the 289R's but not the 294R's ??, but it does clearly state that the A _ _ _ number = needle diameter 2._ _ _. I know the 01' needles are for the Mikuni, manual states 6BEH1-70(-70 = diameter 2.70) and 6BEH2-70(same diameter 1/2 clip position richer). If I extrapolate this :confused:, is it correct then that the 294R's and EKA's are 1/2 clip richer also?

Looking at the JD charts when comparing a DDK to the 99' and 00' needles it appears to me that the 99' is a double taper, while the 2000' is a triple.

  • skipn8r

Posted March 23, 2008 - 09:26 AM

#17

If I extrapolate this :confused:, is it correct then that the 294R's and EKA's are 1/2 clip richer also?

I'm almost certain that the EKA is 1/2 clip leaner than the DKA; I'm assuming that the 289R and 294R refer to an L1 dimension so that the 294R is 1/2 clip leaner than the 289R. The lack of JD Guide support on the '00 and JD needles is the primary reason I'm experimenting with N3xx needles right now...

  • hallsy

Posted March 23, 2008 - 07:15 PM

#18

I'm almost certain that the EKA is 1/2 clip leaner than the DKA; I'm assuming that the 289R and 294R refer to an L1 dimension so that the 294R is 1/2 clip leaner than the 289R. The lack of JD Guide support on the '00 and JD needles is the primary reason I'm experimenting with N3xx needles right now...


You probably know this but I'll post in case, If the N3xx needles your reffering to = N3Ex than the spreadsheet can be manipulated in 1/2 clip positions to reflect some of the other needles in the series that aren't in the guide. Per the Yamaha manual, N3Cx is 1/2 clip leaner than N3Ex, and N8Rx is 1/2 clip richer than N3Ex. Does this experiment involve the KTM or the CR?

  • skipn8r

Posted March 24, 2008 - 07:13 AM

#19

Does this experiment involve the KTM or the CR?

Both :confused:.





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