650R Desert Racer Project


56 replies to this topic
  • Bajajoe

Posted February 26, 2008 - 02:56 PM

#1

So, event though Honda is not running 650Rs anymore....

I am going to build one just for fun and go race it.

I am hoping that everyone can put in a few good words on mods for this bike. It will be raced in desert, long distance team events, and will be built as much as I can afford.

I have a like new 2001 and is bone stock. I think the guy rode it twice.

Lets start on the list

Suspension - revalve and respring from Prec Concepts
Scotts Damper
Motor - BOOOMER (PC?) custom headers and tail pipe,, what else?
Airbox - cut and side plate drilled
Carb - stock carb w/o choke plate and jetted for airbox and exhaust mods
Triple Clamps - after market with tall risers and Pro Tapers
Rewind Stator
HID Lights
Tires??
Better foot pegs

Any other special tricks to get these things as good as can be? Any motor mods? Any frame gussets?

I am hoping to run the motor stock for now and just open it up and re-jet.

I know some would say whats the point, just build a CRF450 and be done with it. Well I have and they are really great. Especially once you sink about $12k into them for bike plus parts.

Its just that the big 650s do run great in the dez and are better for loooong rides and races.

Let me know.

Thanks.

  • BWB63

Posted February 26, 2008 - 03:15 PM

#2

Where in California do you live?

Why spend all the money on a PC suspension when you can do it yourself?....or I can help with what you need to do it right.

IMS pro foot pegs.....Ti if you can aford it.

I love a Nikasil 680cc engine. Biult right it is bullet proof.

Under the bar Scotts.

There is lots of mods for the stock carb. and other stuff here:
www.borynack.com/XR650R has some links that might help:ride:

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  • Denn10

Posted February 26, 2008 - 03:41 PM

#3

Heres my thought for that...........Welcome to TT my Cali Brother!!

  • Bajajoe

Posted February 26, 2008 - 03:59 PM

#4

Where in California do you live?

Why spend all the money on a PC suspension when you can do it yourself?....or I can help with what you need to do it right.

IMS pro foot pegs.....Ti if you can aford it.

I love a Nikasil 680cc engine. Biult right it is bullet proof.

Under the bar Scotts.

There is lots of mods for the stock carb. and other stuff here:
www.borynack.com/XR650R has some links that might help:ride:

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Prec Concepts is running about $1000 including freight. It is really pricey so....

I have the tools to disassemble and reassemble the shock and fork. I just do not know what internals need massaging.

All I know now is that the stock suspension is totally junk and IMO could be considered a liability for Honda if anyone tried to ride these bikes aggresively in the Dez.

I put 600 miles on this bike pre running for last year's 1000 and thought about (more than once) throwing that hunk of junk in a ditch and lighting on fire and leaving it. My forearms hurts so much that I switched bikes with my buddy (crf 450 stock) and he demanded his bike back after about 10 miles. LOL!

So suspension, its all about the spring rates and valving and oil vis and level. Anyone have the specs that they want to share and maybe Ill try it out.

Whats the deal with the 680 kit? Is this a REALLY reliable setup? Can it run on regular pump gas?

I know the std jetting setup for the a relatively stock motor but any other tips would be great.

Thanks.

  • hill5150

Posted February 26, 2008 - 04:03 PM

#5

Stage II cam and 680 motor( yes it will run on pump, just keep your compression at an acceptable level), bulletproof and hauls ass, if you have the dough, get the eddie.........I would shop suspension before giving PC a cool 1k.........

  • BWB63

Posted February 26, 2008 - 04:21 PM

#6

Links that might help you with your bike:

http://borynack.com/XR650R/

http://borynack.com/xr650r.htm

http://borynack.com/...pension ww1.doc

http://borynack.com/...pension www.doc

http://dirtbike.off-...l.jsp?id=266765

http://borynack.com/...on/KYBSHOWA.htm

http://borynack.com/...nsiontuning.htm


I get my shims from here: RaceTech: http://www.racetech....3&showPage=dirt
You can also get them here > MX-Tech.com: http://www.mx-tech.c...products&cat=12

  • DelTronXR

Posted February 26, 2008 - 05:35 PM

#7

I don't think the 680 setup is absolutely necessary nor is the comparable "full-blown" HRC kit. Just free up your jetting/exhaust and IMO the bike will be fast enough for anything. Spend the cash on your suspension....it's been the best investment I've made on mine hands down. Precision Concepts in Temecula set mine up last year and it really REALLY REALLY changed how the bike rides....I LOVE IT! I've run the Scotts forward mount on mine for 5 years and never had a problem with it. 15/47 is the best setup for desert/Baja, and Maxxis Desert IT rear is the best hands down also. Just add a fatty tank to your list and you'll have yourself a beast and then some Bajajoe. You're definitely on the right track with what you've got:thumbsup:

Here's a couple shots of mine

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  • BWB63

Posted February 26, 2008 - 10:15 PM

#8

As said, a stock motor can do a lot of races......a lot and win with the right rider. No question about that.

You will get a lot of input of what works best from what each rider on this group has and some of that input will be good but, it will be based on what they spent the $$$$ on and what the bike was before the $$$$$. Then there will be a few on the group that have more then a few XR650R's and a few XR680R's for their use. Taken apart most all the top suspension setups from each shop. Tested them, raced them, compared the difference, have a ton of the guys out their with setups that work, racing the SCORE, BITD and District #37 races. There are a few out there that have had PC, Barnum's, Baja Designs and other setups apart and can tell you the difference. The most important thing is that suspension is the number one most needed mod and there is no reason to pay anywhere near $1000 for something you can do yourself, if you know what you are doing. PC does turn out real good work from all the suspensions of theirs that I have had apart. I don't have the KX bottoming cones writen up on the fork suspension page. I have to finish a write up the hybrid XR650R/CR500R shock that is the best race setup. You want the best setup from PC and it will be well over $1800. I didn't pay a third of that for doing my last three setups and that includes the CR500R shock. If you have the money and don't want to spend the time doing it yourself have PC do the suspension.
You do not need a 680cc monster but, if you ride one setup right it sure is fun, you do not need a pumper carburetor but, once you get one dialed in it sure makes life easier. You do not need a damper but, once one has save your bacon, you can look back and say, "I am sure glad I bought that!" You can go with the tire that everone thinks is best but, it sure is better when you pick the right tire for the terraferma you are going to be roosting on. If you are just racing to have fun this will all be spelled out in time from being around other racers that are making it work. Their bikes will be all scratched up, you will see that the side covers are almost worn through. They will let you know what they don't like about what they have and what works for what and doesn't but, it's all they have. They will get to the stuff that matters, like making sure you have the right clutch setup, (hate it when you lose your clutch in a race) Foot peg fix!!! Lose the right foot peg and you might only break your leg if you are lucky, straightening out your sub-frame, using a light rear tire to lower the spinning mase going through the whoops, seting up the right race sag and fork rake............ I am more then happy to help with the guidance for your setup on sespension, do you live in SO. CAL.?
This XR650R clearing a 55' table top has a suspension done off the www.borynack.com/XR650R sight.....oh, wait that's mine... Best part the info. is free! Doing suspensions for people I don't ride with doesn't pay enough.

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XR680R with a XR650R/CR500R hybrid shock:
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  • sploogemonkey

Posted February 27, 2008 - 03:55 AM

#9

Okay BWB63, with the exception of heavier springs from RaceTech, the suspension on my 600R is bone stock.

I'll check out the links you suggested and consider a home garage revalve.

Are your links specific to the 650R, or will I find shim stack info for a '00 600R as well?

Sorry for buttin' in on your thread Bajajoe. Good luck with your project.

  • BWB63

Posted February 27, 2008 - 06:53 AM

#10

Okay BWB63, with the exception of heavier springs from RaceTech, the suspension on my 600R is bone stock.

I'll check out the links you suggested and consider a home garage revalve.

Are your links specific to the 650R, or will I find shim stack info for a '00 600R as well?

Sorry for buttin' in on your thread Bajajoe. Good luck with your project.


Yes, the pages are only for the XR650R suspension. The XR650R suspension is NOT the same as the XL650L or the XR600R. Shock is close but, the forks are not the same.

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  • sploogemonkey

Posted February 27, 2008 - 08:35 AM

#11

I figured there would be differences in components between the 600R and the 650R.

I'm mostly concerned with theory and proper shim selection. The nuts and bolts of the process I think I can figger out.

I've wondered if I can get away with rearranging the shim stacks (compression & rebound) using the existing shims and alter the rate of flow through the piston enough, or if I would have to purchase additional shims of varying thickness and diameter to achieve the damping characteristics I want.

I've learned that it isn't possible to get info from people at Precision Concepts or RaceTech. I'm not talking about specific settings or "secret info", I mean just useful info on theory. It's almost like they feel the Suspension Gods passed the Gospel according to Showa directly to them and only they are qualified to understand the mysteries of fluid dynamics as it applies to rebound and compression inside a shock body.

I'll do some more research before I open my shock up.

  • Bajajoe

Posted February 27, 2008 - 10:07 AM

#12

So, before this seems like a smack down, I am in the same boat as you. Do I buck up and send it PC and get what will be the best suspension ever or do I take a crack at doing it myself. I have not made a choice yet.

The reason that suspension shops do not want to give out free information is that they have invested a lot of time and money to figure out what works. If you think its good business to hand out your "secret sauce receipe" then think again.

Can you imagine if everytime someone called me on how to build an industrial machine that they wanted me to explain how the Westinghouse Alternating Fatigue Shaft Analysis should be applied to short stubby shafts? Sorry Charlie, I get a lot of money to apply those theories and understandings of machine design. Thats how I make a living.

Its really up to the individual. Shim stacks are cheap and the web links posted here are REALLY COOL!

  • Bajajoe

Posted February 27, 2008 - 10:13 AM

#13

If you want your head to spin check this out

http://en.wikipedia..../Fluid_dynamics

  • Scotty Breauxman

Posted February 27, 2008 - 02:23 PM

#14

All I know now is that the stock suspension is totally junk and IMO could be considered a liability for Honda if anyone tried to ride these bikes aggresively in the Dez.


Prior to ponying up the $1000.00 for PC suspension, I took a beating with the pigs stock setup...

After the $1000, I can agree with DelTron Hubbard:thumbsup: that the suspension mod was the best $ spent...
Now whether or not you want to save $ and do it yourself is your business..I'm a lame-o with tech stuff (thats just me), so I spent the $ at PC...The thing is amazing, made me ride like some of you other guys-better.

Finally, a cool modification is to route back-up cables (clutch, throttle and decomp) along side the original cables and zip-ty them in place...THat way, if a cable goes out on you (or a buddy) while out in the boonies, you've got your but covered.

I'm going to test the new pivot pegs on my BRP tomorrow and will post a product review here on TT by the end of the week.

Congrats on building a BRP, the longboard of dirtbikes.

  • BWB63

Posted February 27, 2008 - 02:48 PM

#15

[COLOR="Blue"]Understanding and doing a quality suspension job is not out of reach for most guys that are good at turning a wrench.[/COLOR]
It's not for everyone...but, for those that can and will work on their own bike it isn't any harder then working on any other part of the bike. I can't understand someone who will install a new cam, keeping the timing right, adjustly the cam chain tensioner and all would think that the suspension is something top secret and have to have a PhD is Fluid dynamics/Hydrolics to figure this out. I know the web sight should be more step by step but, there are tons of links outthere already for that so, the page is on what you need to know different for the XR650R. The basic shock is the same as the XR600R and the shim stack is a little close to what I ran in my 628cc XR600R but, I would not use the same setups from XR650R on a XR650L or XR600R.
Not, everyone will do their own suspension...heck not everyone will change their own oil! So, is it wrong to tell someone how to change their opil, spark plug, tire or install a cam? I have done at least twenty XR650R suspensions for riders off of TT and at least that amount for free labour for TT rides and riders off the Yahoo XR650R group. Why is that any different then me setting the valve lash for bikes just before a SCORE race or changing a wheel at a pit? I have two suspensions here now from riders that are off this group. I have said it many times, you can do your suspension and have just as good of a job (or better) then any place you pay to do it and that is a fact! May take you a lot longer and you won't just throw it together. Most likely a lot cleaner, it will be torqued right, you will understand what you want more. Seems no one knows that you should be changing the fluid in your suspension about yearly if you ride a lot.

What happens when you get someone that has been to Racetech's school, been shown suspensions by Jimmy Sones and some of the best racers out there. Then in the end doesn't want to do it for a business, gets a strange hair and puts it all on the net? Should I let all that I have learned go to waist? I was laughing when I was at a shop up in Phelen and the shop owner was ripping me for putting shim stacks and a how to page on the net. Man was he mad, like his whole business was going to come to an end........ It is true that the shim stacks from all the shops are close to the same if you are using a Gold Valve and close to the same if you are using stock valve. There is difference on the shim stacks for lots of reasons though, from fluid viscosity, spring, weight, riding style......PC is using the latest thought on fluid viscosity and has moved on from the XR600R thinking. This is not true with a lot of shops. It is funny that one of the shim setups on the www.borynack.com fork page has a PC in the header.....and RB on another, I wounder what that means? (I am sure it doesn't mean Precision Concepts and Rob Barnum)
I need to take the time and finish my page on each system of the forks and shock. What each system is reasponsible for and how it will react as you modify it. The rebound and compression adjusters and valve bypass, what the crossover shims do and why, what the bladder is for and Nitrogen pressure, port size in the valve and fluid viscosity. What stictation is, hydrolicing, what makes the seals seal, how to get all the air out of the fluid of the shock. There is a lot more.

  • sploogemonkey

Posted February 27, 2008 - 04:28 PM

#16

So, before this seems like a smack down, I am in the same boat as you.

The reason that suspension shops do not want to give out free information is that they have invested a lot of time and money to figure out what works. If you think its good business to hand out your "secret sauce receipe" then think again.


It's all good, Bajajoe :smirk: I agree with what you're saying, so I don't take it as a smack down.

I just believe that it's bad business logic for any companys representative to alienate prospective consumers by dismissing them as a nuisance.

There comes a point where a service manager or tech should be intuitive enough to recognize he/she is speaking with a fellow enthusiast who has a simple question, and be able to answer quickly and efficiently. That's good customer service. I wasn't looking for "secret recipes", or anything specific, for that matter.

I'm happy to share information with someone if I feel they are capable of using it and benefitting from it. Karma's been good to me.

  • ogrider650

Posted February 27, 2008 - 10:17 PM

#17

i went with barnums and love my suspension for desert i do D37 and its great the faster i go the better it feels i use a gpr and put the edelbrock for those hard to stat occasions but i rode it for 3 years before i touched the suspension and its a huge difference robs a great guy and knows baja so hell get it setup right for you

  • BajaBoundMoto

Posted February 28, 2008 - 09:23 AM

#18

However you want to go about it, make sure you're 100% happy with the suspension. (my newest set of PC suspension is so sweet I'm not even running a damper at this time)
Steering damper yes.
Top triple clamp (applied).
Do not do a cam or big motor. A big motor might feel fun, but you should keep it easy to ride for your long distance events.
Do not cut vents in the side number plate, it will only cause you troubles, there's no sense in it with a stock motor.
Rewind stator.
Big double Halogen lights, not HID.
Right side footpeg mount (PC or Kritter).
No frame gussets, no motor mods other than the typical non-CA stuff.



It will be raced in desert, long distance team events, and will be built as much as I can afford.
Suspension - revalve and respring from Prec Concepts
Scotts Damper
Motor - BOOOMER (PC?) custom headers and tail pipe,, what else?
Airbox - cut and side plate drilled
Carb - stock carb w/o choke plate and jetted for airbox and exhaust mods
Triple Clamps - after market with tall risers and Pro Tapers
Rewind Stator
HID Lights
Tires??
Better foot pegs
Any other special tricks to get these things as good as can be? Any motor mods? Any frame gussets?



  • Bajajoe

Posted February 28, 2008 - 10:04 AM

#19

Thanks everyone. Great tips. I have set a budget and a ride/race date so its time to strip it down, get the parts, and start assembling.

I did not know about this foot peg issue. Ill have to check this out.

No cutting on side panel? I thought this was a must for big headers and open exhaust w jetting?

I have gotten a few other pms about PC and how great it is plus the other shops too. Not sure. I do have a line on an already built CR500 shock. Is it worth it?

Eddie carb.... Yeah I have drooled over those things for years. Just not in the budget right now.

I have older H4 dual lights (PIAA) from back in the day when we raced KXs and XR600s and a special triple H4 also. These seem weak compared to the new HID setups. Too bad cause its was bucks to set these up back in the day. I am thinking a single HID might be fine for now.

Thanks again for the tips. The list is on the shop white board so its time to get to work.

  • BajaBoundMoto

Posted February 28, 2008 - 10:20 AM

#20

Let's say you're racing Baja or Nevada long distance event...
Is the minor (if any) performance gain with open side # plate going to offset the amount of time for changing more air filters and the possibility of clogging air filters?
Are you a good enough rider to need and be able to use extra bits of power? Big power is not what's going to put you ahead in a Baja race. Reliability, easy to ride, not stopping, not crashing will.
A well built OEM 650r shock is really good. I've raced with both. Are you a good enough rider to notice the little bit of difference? IMO just get your OEM shock done.
Those old school PIAAs didn't throw a really good pattern. Oscars do as well as new types of Baja D lenses. Really bright color of the HIDs are hard to see to some people (such as myself). Duller Halogens are really good. Plus you said you're on abudget and going halogen is less money and easier to accomplish. The first 2 Overall from the past few Baja 1000's have been on dual halogen. Seems to me to be plenty.
A single HID isn't as good as a dual set of halogens IMO.

No cutting on side panel? I thought this was a must for big headers and open exhaust w jetting?
I do have a line on an already built CR500 shock. Is it worth it?
I have older H4 dual lights (PIAA) from back in the day when we raced KXs and XR600s and a special triple H4 also. These seem weak compared to the new HID setups. Too bad cause its was bucks to set these up back in the day. I am thinking a single HID might be fine for now.







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