vortex ignition, adjustable timing plate


14 replies to this topic
  • ToXicD

Posted January 09, 2008 - 03:41 PM

#1

does anyone here see why you could not use the trx450r ignition on the xr650?? the only thing i could see being a problem is if the timing advance was too much for the xr's motor, but i am not sure what the factory ignition timings on both the bikes are. I know someone is gonna ask why i would want to do this. I am putting an xr motor into a 450r frame and would like to keep the 450r's factory harness.

  • martinfan30

Posted January 09, 2008 - 05:31 PM

#2

I know Wes put in a xr 400 cdi with good results on his XRR. Not sure if the trx thing would work or not.

  • ToXicD

Posted January 10, 2008 - 02:38 AM

#3

well i found out they use two totally different pickup systems and i am not going to be able to use it. the trx apparently has 2 magnets on the flywheel which sends binary code to the cdi which then converts it to engine rpms. i was wondering if anyone here has tried the vortex ignition and if so what they thought.

i actually talked to vortex in australia this evening and the guy told me exactly what the flywheel mod is. the actually extend the magnet further so it picksup sooner therefore advancing the ignition timing. this can also be accoplished buy moving the pickup in the casing. i have not looked at the stator side of the motor yet but i am gonna see if i can machine a pickup plate that is slotted so i can advance my timing. they make the adjustable pickup plates for many different bikes and i actually have one on my trx250r. does anyone know if an adjustable plate has been tried bofore, or something just to move the pickup point??

  • martinfan30

Posted January 10, 2008 - 02:38 PM

#4

stating the obvious here, but dont forget that will increase the operating temps..

  • ToXicD

Posted January 10, 2008 - 04:03 PM

#5

stating the obvious here, but dont forget that will increase the operating temps..

Thanks, the trx actually comes stock with a cooling fan so I am gonna wire that in to come on when the engine starts. Also what is your guys thoughts on thermostats? The quad doesn't use one but I am thinking it may be better for the engine by helping it warm up to temp faster especiall with the cooling fan.

  • martinfan30

Posted January 11, 2008 - 09:33 AM

#6

If the quad didnt come with one from the factory, there HAS to be a reason. Honda engineers are well versed in their work.

  • ToXicD

Posted January 11, 2008 - 12:21 PM

#7

true, but the xr did come with one and i will be running the xr motor in the trx frame so i am thinking it may be a good idea to use it.

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  • rdahl

Posted January 11, 2008 - 02:14 PM

#8

Keep us posted...i have a Tokyo Mods Vortex programable ingition for a
xr650r that i'm thinking of puting on my bike. It has a button for selecting different ignition curves....pretty cool.

  • ToXicD

Posted January 11, 2008 - 02:25 PM

#9

rdahl, you a vortex ignition you are wanting to put on your xr650r?? just wondering why you havnt done it already?? have you had the flywheel mod done or are you just planning to plug in the cdi box??

  • rdahl

Posted January 11, 2008 - 03:07 PM

#10

I haven't done the Fly Wheel Mod yet which it calls for, also I picked it up used so don't know much about it.

  • Thumpage

Posted January 31, 2008 - 11:16 PM

#11

The Vortex x10 CDIs from Tokyo Mods do require the flywheel pickup to be modified. The pickup/trigger is lengthened at the forward edge to take advantage of the further advanced timing maps of their particular programmed map offerings.
But, the XR650R Vortex ignitions can come with maps for use with a unmodified flywheel pickup. Tokyo mods might have a selection of maps for a stock flywheel they could reprogram into the CDI.
MT Racing is also a U.S. distributer of Vortex ignitions in southern Cal.. MT Racing maps are also preprogrammed for modified pickups but can be reprogrammed for a standard flywheel.
I happen to have a Vortex CDI on loan from a friend overseas that came with maps for the standard stock flywheel. I have yet to run it on my bike.
Vortex Australia told me that depending where the unit was purchased would determine whether or not the CDI unit came with mapping curves for a stock or modded flywheel. They also said that generally, if they send out a CDI without confirmation of the flywheel mod being done then it would be programmed to suit the standard flywheel.

It is interesting to see in the ignition application listings, that it appears only the XR400 & 650R are the only bikes that are required by MT Racing & Tokyo Mods to have the flywheel pickups modded with their offered preprogrammed maps. I have been told by MT racing that once the pickup is modified you cannot go back to using the stock CDI with it. Whether it will not run or will simply run lousy with the stock CDI unit, I didn't inquire.

  • ToXicD

Posted February 01, 2008 - 03:00 AM

#12

I really don't see what would keep you from running the stock ignition if you put a stock flywheel back on.

  • rdahl

Posted February 01, 2008 - 10:20 AM

#13

Good stuff, thank you.

That makes sense that the pick up needs more "notice" since some of the maps can start early in the cycle.

The Vortex x10 CDIs from Tokyo Mods do require the flywheel pickup to be modified. The pickup/trigger is lengthened at the forward edge to take advantage of the further advanced timing maps of their particular programmed map offerings.
But, the XR650R Vortex ignitions can come with maps for use with a unmodified flywheel pickup. Tokyo mods might have a selection of maps for a stock flywheel they could reprogram into the CDI.
MT Racing is also a U.S. distributer of Vortex ignitions in southern Cal.. MT Racing maps are also preprogrammed for modified pickups but can be reprogrammed for a standard flywheel.
I happen to have a Vortex CDI on loan from a friend overseas that came with maps for the standard stock flywheel. I have yet to run it on my bike.
Vortex Australia told me that depending where the unit was purchased would determine whether or not the CDI unit came with mapping curves for a stock or modded flywheel. They also said that generally, if they send out a CDI without confirmation of the flywheel mod being done then it would be programmed to suit the standard flywheel.

It is interesting to see in the ignition application listings, that it appears only the XR400 & 650R are the only bikes that are required by MT Racing & Tokyo Mods to have the flywheel pickups modded with their offered preprogrammed maps. I have been told by MT racing that once the pickup is modified you cannot go back to using the stock CDI with it. Whether it will not run or will simply run lousy with the stock CDI unit, I didn't inquire.



  • ToXicD

Posted February 01, 2008 - 11:22 AM

#14

Just got off the phone with Mt racing and they said the flywheel mod nearly doubles the length of the trigger which no doubt increase your advance and duration! Bad news is they charge 200 smackers for the mod which could easily be done yourself if you knew exactly how much to lengthen it :busted:

  • Thumpage

Posted February 04, 2008 - 10:14 PM

#15

Good stuff, thank you.

That makes sense that the pick up needs more "notice" since some of the maps can start early in the cycle.


Rdahl,

Glad I can help. You have two choices. 1) Have your flywheel pickup modified for the Tokyo Designs pre programmed maps or 2) Have them reprogram your unit to maps for a stock pickup.
As ToXic mentioned, as was also told to me by Mike at MT Racing when I talked to him, MT can modify the pickup for $200. But they can also reprogram the CDI with advanced maps for a stock length pickup and it would only run $100 in comparison. If you ever wanted or needed to go back to the stock CDI for whatever reason, you could. Once the pickup is modded, that's it, the flywheel can only be used with the further advanced maps programmed for the pickup modification. If you wanted to go back to the stock CDI, you would of course need another flywheel without the modified pickup.
What was interesting to here from MT Racing is that it was told to me that Team Honda had been running a Vortex ignition, (at least at some point) and that it was requested that the Vortex was programmed with maps for using it with the stock flywheel.
This actually leads me remembering back to a conversation in 2003 I think it was, when Bob Bell told me through an email conversation that they had been using or tried an aftermarket CDI on the Honda team XR650R. He had said they had floated a valve while using it. I can't say in what circumstance and what stage of experimenting it was though, what motor mods were done or what mapping and/or possible flywheel modification they had been using at the time.

I THINK THIS IS CRITICAL INFORMATION: MT Racing told me that the usual 9,750 RPM rev limit on the Vortex maps are meant for STOCK motors but with an internally modified motor they lower the rev limit of the mapping.





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