450X beats the 650R in the baja???


87 replies to this topic
  • cr2fidy

Posted January 04, 2008 - 04:15 PM

#21

I've owned a 650r and rode the hell out of my buddies 450x, and if i had to choose on of them to run baja with it would be the 450x hands down. It's lighter, better suspended, turns better, and stock is not that much slower than a 650.

  • weskc35k

Posted January 04, 2008 - 06:46 PM

#22

Denn did you get punked?
I hate them effers,they punk ya without a sig,i got one for trying to help a guy once sux a bit for sure.

  • itsnotajeep

Posted January 04, 2008 - 06:50 PM

#23

Okay.......I feel the need to chime in..... :D

I have Four RED bikes in my garage....including race-ready 450X and XR650R. BOTH are amazing bikes, last week I was side-by-side at triple digits on the X next to my buddy on a well spec'd XRR(those of you that know the bomb road in PCE:crazy: . The 650 is cam'd, the 450 has stock internals. Both bikes saw rev limiters, and were neck-n-neck all the way there. I think a lot of people can poopoo an X off the floor (at least if you are riding in the South West Desert) but with proper gearing......:ride:

Say what you want either way. I'm not selling my XRR.....actually, I just bought another one.....however saying that AHM is abandoning the 650r because they simply want to "Market" their new line is old-man-talk and should be sent over to the KTM forum:excuseme: A trip to Mike's? I'm taking the 650.....hands down. Soboba? I'm on the X.......:banghead:

In a few more years.....the 650r WILL look just like a 1982 Husky 250cr does today.....sure it was a cool bike but.....:busted:

  • Denn10

Posted January 04, 2008 - 08:58 PM

#24

Denn did you get punked?
I hate them effers,they punk ya without a sig,i got one for trying to help a guy once sux abit for sure.


GOTTA love those ones, you make a general statement and some people get all butt sore about it LOL Not like i went off on anyone BUT could be worse i guess if your getting 3 negs for one thread

people need to chill with hitting that damn gas. We need a royal rumble to settle forum disputes HEHE sorry got WWE on in the background

  • XR680RR

Posted January 04, 2008 - 10:44 PM

#25

Sence we are totaly off topic I would like to chime in on this gas thing. It is nothing but, entertainment for some. Then again this whole forum is just that to some. But, to Thumper Talk it is advertisement!!!!!! Come on this whole forum is about making money for a busniess. We might make it more in our minds but the bottom line is this is about money for a sales group. Most of us are done fixing up our bikes or getting new info on making it better. So, this is better then watching the boob tube. They need to get rid of the gas system if it is going to be anything more then entertainment. I for one will not be subject to another system. I can leave at any time and I do not have to be here or spend money here. My life does not have any need for another control factor and I was doing fine without TT rules before I joined here. I like that Denn laughs this stuff off but, why would I want to be kicked off a group and made to wait before I can post again because of some stupid rules and some unjust gas system? Silly and TT should dump it!

  • scalejockey

Posted January 05, 2008 - 08:08 AM

#26

Ya i've noticed some people get a little uptight,but then again I think the gas thing can keep the real a-holes out .. but it's not perfect. I'm a lot like denn10 I have to laugh.

  • weskc35k

Posted January 05, 2008 - 04:54 PM

#27

Isn't that what the moderators are for?

  • scalejockey

Posted January 05, 2008 - 05:59 PM

#28

I'm glad i don't have that job...


I think i'll go lube my chain and a beer is getting too cold in the shop fridge.

  • XR680RR

Posted January 05, 2008 - 06:48 PM

#29

Oh, humbug, bad gas for everyone!!!! I hate you all!

  • hill5150

Posted January 06, 2008 - 06:57 PM

#30

There is a reason why folks opt for a 450 versus a 650, it has a lot to do w/ the size of their junk...or lack thereof..........:banghead: Get over it, if you can MAN handle a 650 for 1300 miles, you have proven yourself.....Oh and that is stock w/ minor mods....................

Visit the ThumperTalk Store for the lowest prices on motorcycle / ATV parts and accessories - Guaranteed
  • Krannie McKranface

Posted January 06, 2008 - 08:25 PM

#31

There is another aspect to this. Honda does not race a CRF450X in the SCORE Baja races!:banghead: They run a major modified bike that looks like a CRF450X. Not even close to what you would buy from your honda dealer. The CRF450X wouldn't last through even the Baja 250 at the pace the top Honda riders put the bike through but, then again the XR650R that Honda raced wasn't all as stock as you were lead to believe, it could do two seasons though and didn't have to be totaly rebiult after one Baja race. One season as a race bike next as a prerunner? I know many bikes but, the XR650R can take a lot more punishment then a CRF450, even when they get rid of the silly Ti valves.


Every motorcycle that Factory Honda has ever raced at Baja is 'a major modified bike', including the XR650R. The 450X run this year was not a works bike, in any way. But it is modified, of course. They want to win. This is not a 'stock bike' race!

  • DUDEBRO7

Posted January 07, 2008 - 08:17 AM

#32

Every motorcycle that Factory Honda has ever raced at Baja is 'a major modified bike', including the XR650R. The 450X run this year was not a works bike, in any way. But it is modified, of course. They want to win. This is not a 'stock bike' race!


What he said. :banghead:

  • DUDEBRO7

Posted January 07, 2008 - 08:42 AM

#33

GOTTA love those ones, you make a general statement and some people get all butt sore about it LOL Not like i went off on anyone BUT could be worse i guess if your getting 3 negs for one thread

people need to chill with hitting that damn gas. We need a royal rumble to settle forum disputes HEHE sorry got WWE on in the background


Monday morning update ... 4 negatives, 3 positives and counting ... oh, and a new leader with this little gem

[COLOR="Red"]"Your a clown in the wrong forum" [/COLOR]

:busted: I have been duely scolded and put in my place ... this whole bad gas thing, its *sniff* just such an emotional roller coaster ride!!! :ride:

Interestingly enough (as mentioned by Denn10) all the positives have left names ... not one of the negatives has had the cajones ...

p.s. you are is written you're where as your means it belongs to you ... or in this case me :banghead:

  • BAJAHUSKYS

Posted January 07, 2008 - 09:20 AM

#34

[quote name='Potts228']Last year Team Honda made the commitment to the 450X and did not race a 650R at all.

It's probably closer to a 40lb difference between the two if they are setup the same. The weight difference when riding is HUGE! They don't call the 650R the pig for nothing! The 450X is by far an easier bike to ride... especially in a panic situation when you need to make a sudden change in direction or slow down quickly.

The factory 650R didn't run a kick stand, uses tita. bolts and nuts, no thermostat, and a host of other weight saving items to bring its weight down. The 450X uses the same ideas to shave pounds from it too.

The 450X is very fast on top end and can easily match the 650R in most cases.

This is true especially now that road speeds are held at 60 mph in Score races. Because it's easier to handle and turns much better than the 650R overall, it's a much better choice if you know how to setup a bike and maintain it well.

For Baja, the 650R is still a great choice for a lot of us since we don't have Team Honda paying the bills and we need a reliable bike that will finish.

In Score classes 30, 40, 50 and 60, and Sportsman over 250cc you might even win your classes still for years running the 650R.

I think a great reason the 650R will keep hanging in there is how reliable they are! On the other hand, I don't think a 450X could match that since they are at a higher level of performance than the 650R and probably would need some valve work, or more, to keep going.

I had to re read the orginal thread to see what was being asked by the end of this on Page 4. Having owned an XR 650 (03) before and raced an 91 XR 600 in the 1000 as well (92), I'm certainly not an expert on them. In fact, I raced and managed a Husky team this past year (06/07) because I like them myself. However, having a lot of friends who race Hondas helps knowing what is happening out there.

Your right, the XR 650 that Honda raced for years was miles from the stock PIG you and I can buy in the Honda store. In fact, there race bikes are hand built in Japan for that race alone. They are no more a stock Honda XR 650 or now 450X than the Pro Truck that says Ford is a stock F-150.

The 1X and 14X bikes were assembled especially for the Baja 1000 race. The KTM 690 was assembled for the Baja 1000. Second in Class 22 was Joe Desrosier's on an XR 650 that wasn't stock, but also was not assembled in Japan either. They had the normal Honda XR650R hop up items on it, a secret tire formula that prevents flats, pre run like Honda does, were using BFG pits and came in second at years end to Hondas A team as a privateer team. The KX450 I dont know about, but I doubt it was stock off the show room floor. JAT could tell us about that.

There were still teams racing the Honda XR 600s as late as 2003 in SCORE, even as the Honda XR 650R had been out for 3 years by then. Guys were still convinced that Honda air cooled engines was more reliable than water cooled. That ended when Honda quit making the 600R. Honda has now quit making the 650R. Soon, you will not see many of them racing Baja or BITD most likely too in at least the Score and BITD classes that win OA or for the 30 year olds. Especially if you use Honda pits. Honda is having a large sale this coming Saturday of its XR 650R parts, as they dont race this model any longer. Read XR 650 parts, as in parts that would be in their pits but wont be any longer.

If you have spent anytime in Baja in the last 15 months or so out on the race courses, you know that while the XR 650 is a wonderful Baja cruising bike, the 450 is lighter, almost as fast on top end and holds up well with a few mods as well. Try racing a bike that is 45 lbs heavier than your competition for between 240 and 460 miles and see what you do very soon. Except for the long 1000 to La Paz, there are not many roads in northern Baja where you will be holding the PIG WFO in 5th gear for very long.

I can't comment on Hondas 450X valve issues, but they are probably a thing of the past or soon to be one. Our 07 Husky TC 450 (equivlant of the 450R in cc size) has over 2400 racing miles on the stock valves since 11/06 and they haven't needed adjustment since break in at 200 miles. A new piston was put in before the Baja 500 as a precaution only. It didn't need one. So I'm sure the 450X is probably in that same league by now.

So to wrap it all up.
1)
Honda is now racing a modified CRF450X in BITD, SCORE and local D-37 desert races.
2)They are selling off their spare parts for the XR 650R.
3)They are out of the pit business and Johnny Campbell Racing has taken over pit duties for 2008.
4)There race bikes will continue to be assembled by hand for the large Score races because they can afford to do this to stay on top.
End of story if you are deciding which bike to buy and race from here on out if you plan on winning the race in at least Class 22.

The 650R will be able to be raced for an entire season without being rebuilt. BUT, Honda is winning on 450Xs that are being specially built every race, just as all big winning teams have done for decades now. YOU dont want to race two or more races in a row, spend the $1000's of dollars to do so, just to be taken out by a small piece breaking, that would have been found on a simply rebuild the month before would you?

Factory KTM will do the same with their bike and one day Husky might wake up now that BMW has taken over and do likewise.

Meanwhile, you too can have a winning bike if you mod the 450X, pre run like a dog for 3-5 weeks in a row before each SCORE race on your exactly built pre run bike and run 50 mile pits with spare wheels at each pit. This is why they are called a [I]FACTORY TEAM
.:ride

  • Old-Man

Posted January 07, 2008 - 09:23 AM

#35

Oh, humbug, bad gas for everyone!!!! I hate you all!


That's ok, I hear that from my wife everyday. :banghead:

  • XR_RON

Posted January 07, 2008 - 09:28 AM

#36

After talking to the XR folks,this pretty much sums up what they said,the XR650r will break 100 on any terrain,whearas the 450x needs complete flat ground to break 100 mph.

  • Old-Man

Posted January 07, 2008 - 09:31 AM

#37

[quote name='BAJAHUSKYS'][quote name='Potts228']Last year Team Honda made the commitment to the 450X and did not race a 650R at all.

It's probably closer to a 40lb difference between the two if they are setup the same. The weight difference when riding is HUGE! They don't call the 650R the pig for nothing! The 450X is by far an easier bike to ride... especially in a panic situation when you need to make a sudden change in direction or slow down quickly.

The factory 650R didn't run a kick stand, uses tita. bolts and nuts, no thermostat, and a host of other weight saving items to bring its weight down. The 450X uses the same ideas to shave pounds from it too.

The 450X is very fast on top end and can easily match the 650R in most cases.

This is true especially now that road speeds are held at 60 mph in Score races. Because it's easier to handle and turns much better than the 650R overall, it's a much better choice if you know how to setup a bike and maintain it well.

For Baja, the 650R is still a great choice for a lot of us since we don't have Team Honda paying the bills and we need a reliable bike that will finish.

In Score classes 30, 40, 50 and 60, and Sportsman over 250cc you might even win your classes still for years running the 650R.

I think a great reason the 650R will keep hanging in there is how reliable they are! On the other hand, I don't think a 450X could match that since they are at a higher level of performance than the 650R and probably would need some valve work, or more, to keep going.

I had to re read the orginal thread to see what was being asked by the end of this on Page 4. Having owned an XR 650 (03) before and raced an 91 XR 600 in the 1000 as well (92), I'm certainly not an expert on them. In fact, I raced and managed a Husky team this past year (06/07) because I like them myself. However, having a lot of friends who race Hondas helps knowing what is happening out there.

Your right, the XR 650 that Honda raced for years was miles from the stock PIG you and I can buy in the Honda store. In fact, there race bikes are hand built in Japan for that race alone. They are no more a stock Honda XR 650 or now 450X than the Pro Truck that says Ford is a stock F-150.

The 1X and 14X bikes were assembled especially for the Baja 1000 race. The KTM 690 was assembled for the Baja 1000. Second in Class 22 was Joe Desrosier's on an XR 650 that wasn't stock, but also was not assembled in Japan either. They had the normal Honda XR650R hop up items on it, a secret tire formula that prevents flats, were using BFG pits and came in second at years end to Hondas A team as a privateer team. The KX450 I dont know about, but I doubt it was stock off the show room floor. JAT could tell us about that.

There were still teams racing the Honda XR 600s as late as 2003 in SCORE, even as the Honda XR 650R had been out for 3 years by then. Guys were still convinced that Honda air cooled engines was more reliable than water cooled. That ended when Honda quit making the 600R. Honda has now quit making the 650R. Soon, you will not see many of them racing Baja or BITD most likely too in at least the Score and BITD classes that win OA or for the 30 year olds. Especially if you use Honda pits. Honda is having a large sale this coming Saturday of its XR 650R parts, as they dont race this model any longer. Read XR 650 parts, as in parts that would be in their pits but wont be any longer.

If you have spent anytime in Baja in the last 15 months or so out on the race courses, you know that while the XR 650 is a wonderful Baja cruising bike, the 450 is lighter, almost as fast on top end and holds up well with a few mods as well. Try racing a bike that is 45 lbs heavier than your competition for between 240 and 460 miles and see what you do very soon. Except for the long 1000 to La Paz, there are not many roads in northern Baja where you will be holding the PIG WFO in 5th gear for very long.

I can't comment on Hondas 450X valve issues, but they are probably a thing of the past or soon to be one. Our 07 Husky TC 450 (equivlant of the 450R in cc size) has over 2400 racing miles on the stock valves since 11/06 and they haven't needed adjustment since break in at 200 miles. A new piston was put in before the Baja 500 as a precaution only. It didn't need one. So I'm sure the 450X is probably in that same league by now.

So to wrap it all up.
1)
Honda is now racing a modified CRF450X in BITD, SCORE and local D-37 desert races.
2)They are selling off their spare parts for the XR 650R.
3)They are out of the pit business and Johnny Campbell Racing has taken over pit duties for 2008.
4)There race bikes will continue to be assembled by hand for the large Score races because they can afford to do this to stay on top.
End of story if you are deciding which bike to buy and race from here on out if you plan on winning the race in at least Class 22.

The 650R will be able to be raced for an entire season without being rebuilt. BUT, Honda is winning on 450Xs that are being specially built every race, just as all big winning teams have done for decades now. YOU dont want to race two or more races in a row, spend the $1000's of dollars to do so, just to be taken out by a small piece breaking, that would have been found on a simply rebuild the month before would you?

Factory KTM will do the same with their bike and one day Husky might wake up now that BMW has taken over and do likewise.

Meanwhile, you too can have a winning bike if you mod the 450X, pre run like a dog for 3-5 weeks in a row before each SCORE race on your exact pre run bike and run 50 mile pits with spare wheels at each pit. This is why they are called a [I]FACTORY TEAM
.:ride[/QUOTE]

650R is a killer bike if you ask me. I would say it's a great big for the races like the Baja 500 & 1000, and for the dez. What happens when you bring it into the woods on some tech stuff, will it keep up with a 450X that is not modded out?

  • Denn10

Posted January 07, 2008 - 10:21 AM

#38

Isn't that what the moderators are for?


not one here but i put my vote in for a good guy to be our mod well see if he gets promoted

Whos Mike?

  • axarob44

Posted January 07, 2008 - 10:52 AM

#39

After talking to the XR folks,this pretty much sums up what they said,the XR650r will break 100 on any terrain,whearas the 450x needs complete flat ground to break 100 mph.


What? Where did you get that info?:banghead:

  • JohnnyAirtime

Posted January 07, 2008 - 12:43 PM

#40

Not only did the 450X beat a KTM 690.... it beat the 650R... However the 650R was not too far behind. And in all actuality, it's not the bike that beats the other team!

.... I think the point is, you put a winning team (because the brand of bike is nearly the least amount of concern) on a bike that is prepped and ready to race, your going to do well if not win on said bike. Then make sure your lights are at the right pit... etc.etc. (did you all know KTM rode with a flashlight for 45 minutes or so?! Talk about slowing them down!)....

The 650R didn't lose to the 450X, the KLX... or the KTM. It just wasn't ridden by any team that was to put it out front. .... HOWEVER, if you look at the finishing times, and the overall status... you'll see the 650R was in the top 5 overall... and beat plenty (even our KLX450... in time).

Here's what I mean;
  • Gerardo Rojas, Vincent Guerrero, Mexico, Honda XR650R, 27:05:53
  • Chris Haines, Dana Point, Calif./Jack Johnson, Boulder City, Nev./Craig Adams, San Clemente, Calif./Scott Pfeiffer, Costa Mesa, Calif./Jimmy Sones, Honda XR650R, 28:35:30 (over 50 yr old crew!)
  • Joe Desrosiers, San Marcos, Calif./Aaron Tuck, Brawley, Calif./Cameron Corfman, El Centro, Calif./Sunny Irvine, Cabo San Lucas, Mexico/Tony Rutter, New Zealand, Honda XR650R, 29:37:39
  • David Potts, Burbank, Calif./Adam Pontious, Mojave, Calif./Tim Scott, Cypress, Calif./Mike Blackman, San Marcos, Calif./Marc Matson, Westminster, Calif., Honda XR650R, 31:00:01;
  • Keith Spier, Fillmore, Calif./James Andefer, Montecito, Calif./Doug Smith, Upland, Calif./Mark Amondson, Wildomar, Calif./Phillip Riddle, Hesperia, Calif., Honda XR650R, 30:31:54
  • Richard Lancaster, Santa Margarita, Calif./Peter Hardy, Pozo, Calif./John Kaisersatt, Los Osos, Calif./Fred Jowett, Atascadero, Calif./Chris Whalley, Topanga, Calif., Honda XR650R, 31:02:33
  • Scott Atchison/Greg Hauser/Larry Brown/Lance Horton, Bakersfield, Calif./Rob Kennedy, Newhall, Calif., Honda XR650R, 31:04:02;
  • Fred Brown/Peery Brown/Tommy Tomlinson, Rural Retreat, Va./Buster Yarbrough, Winston Salem, N.C./Gary Cluff, Mesa, Ariz., Honda XR650R, 31:30:00


Or top 10 overall... here ya go;

1. Robby Bell, Sun City, Calif./Steve Hengeveld, Hesperia, Calif./Kendall Norman, Santa Barbara, Calif./Johnny Campbell, San Clemente, Calif., Honda CRF450X, 24:15:50 (53.43mph) (Class 22)

2. Tim Morton, Escondido, Calif./Ron Wilson, Encinitas, Calif./Jason Trubey, Bullhead City, Ariz./Caleb Gosselar, Valencia, Calif., Jonah Street, Ellensburg, Wash., Honda CRF450X, 25:34:45 (50.68) (Class 22)

3. Quinn Cody, Buellton, Calif./David Pearson, Las Vegas/Cyril Despres, France, KTM 690Baja, 25:56:00 (49.99) (Class 22)

4. Jim O’Neal, Simi Valley, Calif./Scott Myers, Sun City, Calif./Jeff Sheets, Henderson, Nev./Francisco Septien, Ensenada, Mexico /Taber Murphy, Wenatchee, Wash./Mouse McCoy, Santa Monica, Calif./Jimmy O’Neal Jr., Chatsworth, Calif., Honda CRF450X, 26:48:15; (48.37) (Class 30)

5. Gerardo Rojas, Vincent Guerrero, Mexico, Honda XR650R, 27:05:53 (47.84) (Class 30)

6. Brett Helm, Poway, Calif./Louie Franco, Sherman Oaks, Calif./Jon Ortner, Santa Barbara, Calif./Craig Adams, San Clemente, Calif./Jeff Kaplan, Thousand Oaks, Calif./Bob Johnson, Temecula, Calif., Honda CRF450X, 28:01:11 (42.27) (Class 40)

7. Francisco Arredondo, Guatemala/Kent Pfeiffer, Costa Mesa, Calif./Kurt Pfeiffer, Riverside, Calif., Honda CRF450X, 28:28:54 (45.52) (Class 21)

8. Chris Haines, Dana Point, Calif./Jack Johnson, Boulder City, Nev./Craig Adams, San Clemente, Calif./Scott Pfeiffer, Costa Mesa, Calif./Jimmy Sones, Honda XR650R, 28:35:30 (45.34) (Class 50)

9. Carlos Casas/Noe Ibarra/Ivan Ramirez, Chula Vista, Calif., Honda CRF450X, 29:03:39 (44.61) (Class 21)

10. Donald Connelly, Alpine, Calif./Joe Bolton, Corona, Calif./John Griffin, Lake Forest, Calif./Mark Howell/Greg Luck, El Cajon, Calif./Earl Roberts, Calexico, Calif./Mark Vanscourt, Corona, Calif., Honda CRF450X, 29:17:39; (44.58) (Class 40)

... it's not the "top speed" of these bikes that wins a race, not the "lightest bike" that wins the race... and not the "most secret motor" or secret anything... more or less a well planned and well ridden race. PERIOD.

... what was the point of this thread again?! :busted:


:banghead:





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