Xl600R/XR650L Hybrid


171 replies to this topic
  • HeadTrauma

Posted February 03, 2009 - 10:16 PM

#61

That rod came out of a different XR600 zrxer bought with a blown engine.

All the information on putting a 650L bottom end in an XL600 is on the first page. I say "bottom end" because the single carb head is not easily used in the dual carb frames due to the centrally located rear shock. Single carb frames have the rear shock offset to one side in order to make rood for the carb and airbox boot.

For simplicity, use the XL600 cylinder, head, and cam chain/sprockets with the 650L bottom end and piston.

  • Zombie_Stomp

Posted February 03, 2009 - 10:39 PM

#62

Hi, new on this forum but have been reading this thread with interest. The last page has me confused. Did the hybrid engine blow up? I do not remember reading that in the thread.

Would an XR650L stock engine have been a successful swap into the XL600 frame? Just wondering in case my '83 XL600 engine ever takes a dump on me. I dont want to spend the bucks for a whole nuther bike, and just swapping over to a newer engine and gaining electric start to boot, would sure be nice.



I recognize your username from ADVrider. ZRXer is Brucifer over there with the Arnold Schwarzeneger avatar, and I'm still Zombie Stomp of course.

No, that was a different engine from an XR600R he bought- i think there was another thread on that, where he put his XL600R engine into it after that.

In the question of whether an XL600 could take an XR650L engine, yes, anything is possible. But it would be a lot of trouble.

I put an single carburetor XR600R engine in my XL, and I am going to go back to the XL600R dual carb head on that same XR bottom end because the frame was simply just designed to have the duals in there- the shock is mounted in the center position, and it took me a lot of fennagleing to get it in there where the intake is concerned, and that's why I'm going back.

So say you go ahead with what ZRXer did and change over your head. Now you have to get the right kind of electricity to the starter. The least you need to do is get a bigger battery, then do whatever ZRXer did with his wiring. I just re-read everything, and didn't find anything on his wiring scheme. I do know that the XR650L wiring harness is different from the XL600, but I have a hunch that you could run the 650L crank position sensor with the XL's harness and the ignition coil from that, and then just a 12V momentary switch from the battery to the starter and be in business. Let's see what he has to say about that.

I have thoughts about making an XL600 or XR600R airbox with a bigger battery compartment for e-start purposes for the handful of friends that do these mods to buy.
Joel

  • valvesrule

Posted February 04, 2009 - 12:32 AM

#63

Another update: I might just go with the current xr600r bottom-end with the XL top-end. If I go over by 1 or 2mm, I get 628-653cc of displacement out of only an 80mm crank. The reason I've been thinking of going this route is that it's the simplest solution and the cheapest, involving the least amount of case splitting, etc. The reason for this recent idea is that I heard I may not be able to interchange the cranks sucessfully from the XR650L becase the flywheel end might be different. Plus the simplicity of the operation. So if I do the XR600R bottom/ XL600R top, what piston would be right?
Edit: this just in: a little more researching led to this discovery:
Model / Bore / Stroke / Compression Ratio
XL600/100/75/8.5:1
XR650L/100/82/8.3:1
XR600R/97/80/9.0:1

SO, if I used the XR crank for it's 628-650+ displacement (again, depending on how far overbored I go), I could use an 11:1 wiseco piston made for an XL and still have decent compression, given that the piston does not actually go above the cylinder, if that is even possible. Is that even a concern? It makes more sense to me that they all go the same height and the distance between the top of the piston and the piston pin is to make TDC within the same cylinder height, right?


100X80=628, 101X80=640, 102X80=654. The flywheel end of the 650l crank is larger and longer than xl/xr600.

  • crmc33

Posted February 04, 2009 - 04:41 AM

#64

Yes, theres no starter gear on the XL600 (not all) and also a more compact ac generator. The XL600 crank webs and balancer shafter are also much much lighter than the XRL. The XLs crank webs have forged scallops - it generally has a much 'nicer' final fish than the 650L. Hence why the engine will spin up quicker.
Just building a XRL/XL/XBR hybrid as a second road race engine.

As stated previously the XL and XBR heads crack btwn the sp. plug and the valve seats. You just need to be ahppy that the valve seats wont come loose. The combustion chamber is smaller on these engiens than on the XRL, which I think is the main reason for the cracking (high pressures / temperature).

Have just ported the XL head for twin 34mm flatslides with a slight downdraft. Hope it works well!

I'll be testing both engines (600 vs 675) on the dyno. Itll be interesting to see if the XL head twin intake makes up for the lower cc compared to my XRL. Unlikely I think as I run a HSR48 carb on the XRL.

Should be fun!

  • zrxer

Posted February 04, 2009 - 06:21 AM

#65

Hi, new on this forum but have been reading this thread with interest. The last page has me confused. Did the hybrid engine blow up? I do not remember reading that in the thread.

Would an XR650L stock engine have been a successful swap into the XL600 frame? Just wondering in case my '83 XL600 engine ever takes a dump on me. I dont want to spend the bucks for a whole nuther bike, and just swapping over to a newer engine and gaining electric start to boot, would sure be nice.


Hey handirifle, good to see you here. The broken piston and rod..... my mistake.:) I had another thread going where I installed an XL600 bottom end and XR600 (single carb) head into a 2000 XR600, and that was the rod and piston out of the stock 2000 600.

Check out page one of this thread. The first two pics of the bike are with the stock XR650L engine. I used a Mikuni 38mm flatslide carb (thought it was a 41mm) and a foam clamp on air filter. The stock 650L and stock 600R carbs will not fit.

  • zrxer

Posted February 04, 2009 - 06:34 AM

#66

I recognize your username from ADVrider. ZRXer is Brucifer over there with the Arnold Schwarzeneger avatar, and I'm still Zombie Stomp of course.

No, that was a different engine from an XR600R he bought- i think there was another thread on that, where he put his XL600R engine into it after that.

In the question of whether an XL600 could take an XR650L engine, yes, anything is possible. But it would be a lot of trouble.

I put an single carburetor XR600R engine in my XL, and I am going to go back to the XL600R dual carb head on that same XR bottom end because the frame was simply just designed to have the duals in there- the shock is mounted in the center position, and it took me a lot of fennagleing to get it in there where the intake is concerned, and that's why I'm going back.

So say you go ahead with what ZRXer did and change over your head. Now you have to get the right kind of electricity to the starter. The least you need to do is get a bigger battery, then do whatever ZRXer did with his wiring. I just re-read everything, and didn't find anything on his wiring scheme. I do know that the XR650L wiring harness is different from the XL600, but I have a hunch that you could run the 650L crank position sensor with the XL's harness and the ignition coil from that, and then just a 12V momentary switch from the battery to the starter and be in business. Let's see what he has to say about that.

I have thoughts about making an XL600 or XR600R airbox with a bigger battery compartment for e-start purposes for the handful of friends that do these mods to buy.
Joel


Hey Joel! It should be in this thread somewhere, but I used the XR650L wiring harness and all the switch gear, ignition switch etc. The complete 650L front end was used as well, which made using the ignition switch, lights and all a plug and play deal. The only connector I had to modify was the tail light plug.

  • zrxer

Posted February 04, 2009 - 06:36 AM

#67

Yes, theres no starter gear on the XL600 (not all) and also a more compact ac generator. The XL600 crank webs and balancer shafter are also much much lighter than the XRL. The XLs crank webs have forged scallops - it generally has a much 'nicer' final fish than the 650L. Hence why the engine will spin up quicker.
Just building a XRL/XL/XBR hybrid as a second road race engine.

As stated previously the XL and XBR heads crack btwn the sp. plug and the valve seats. You just need to be ahppy that the valve seats wont come loose. The combustion chamber is smaller on these engiens than on the XRL, which I think is the main reason for the cracking (high pressures / temperature).

Have just ported the XL head for twin 34mm flatslides with a slight downdraft. Hope it works well!

I'll be testing both engines (600 vs 675) on the dyno. Itll be interesting to see if the XL head twin intake makes up for the lower cc compared to my XRL. Unlikely I think as I run a HSR48 carb on the XRL.

Should be fun!


Please post your dyno results! :)

  • handirifle

Posted February 04, 2009 - 08:26 AM

#68

Hey thanks for the info and the welcome mat. :)

I figured this swap was deeper than I first thought. Do you guys get these things from crashed bikes or what?

How much does one normally pay for all the goodies needed for the swap over, ie. engine, harness batteries,air cleaners, etc, not even going down the fork road.

  • zrxer

Posted May 08, 2009 - 06:06 AM

#69

I actually used an XL600 cylinder on a '96 XR600 that I bought new. I believe I bored it 1mm over which gave, as I recall, 654cc. The "correct" way would have been to dissassemble the engine and take the main cases in to have them bored. What I did was lay the XL600 base gasket into place and scribed a line around it. Then shoved rags in the crank area and went to town with a die grinder and carbide bit. It worked just fine. In fact that bike is still going strong somewhere in Oregon. Of course I had the head bolt threads and dowel holes enlarged for the 9mm hardware. If you do that, make sure you sink the threads deeper into the cylinder, there is a difference.


*BIG EDIT* I just realised the thread bosses are cast deeper in the later model XR heads! When I did the above mods I just used washers on the bolt to take up the space of the shallower holes. So if you drill the XL head deeper you will more than likely break through. This still may not be a problem though if you use sealant on the threads.
My apoligies if this previous information has caused anyone any trouble.

Sincerely, Bruce

  • g2mk3

Posted May 19, 2009 - 08:15 PM

#70

bruce - i don't think you ever posted if the det went away with 91. did the rod break before you could find out?

Visit the ThumperTalk Store for the lowest prices on motorcycle / ATV parts and accessories - Guaranteed
  • Motosprtman

Posted May 20, 2009 - 05:06 AM

#71

Motosprtman, look REAL HARD at the engine in the XL600 in the previous pics. :doh: LOL Bruce


DOH! :snore: me total dumbass ....

I have thought of stuffing an XR650L engine into my XL600, but the engine runs fine in the 600. So Probably just leave it the way it is.

  • zrxer

Posted May 20, 2009 - 05:49 AM

#72

bruce - i don't think you ever posted if the det went away with 91. did the rod break before you could find out?


The pic of the bad rod is from another 600 engine I was discussing in another thread. I had a brain malfunction when I posted it here. :doh:

I haven't really messed with this bike for awhile as I've been on other projects. But, it seems the detonation issue has gotten considerably better with the 91. It hasn't completely gone away but much better than before. The engine breaking in probably has a little bit to do with it as well.

  • tractor4play

Posted May 21, 2009 - 09:55 AM

#73

can you tell me what make of piston this is.i can not believe its condition with the rod in that state.was there no major damage to the piston at all?regards ian.

  • zrxer

Posted May 23, 2009 - 10:13 AM

#74

can you tell me what make of piston this is.i can not believe its condition with the rod in that state.was there no major damage to the piston at all?regards ian.


Other than shrapnel marks on the underside, most of the damage is to the oil ring land on the exhaust side. It has started to pull away, like it got really hot. Deep scuffing on that side of the skirt as well.
I just ran the numbers off it and it's a 97.50mm Wiseco 11-1.

  • bigbob65

Posted May 25, 2009 - 08:57 PM

#75

nice
very nice build

  • Manos

Posted August 05, 2009 - 11:11 PM

#76

zrxer,

Are there any news with the hybrid?
I'm following your posts because I'm doing something similar myself, starting with a Dominator650 engine.
Have you dynoed yours?

Any update appreciated

Thanks
Manos

  • Manos

Posted August 06, 2009 - 03:45 AM

#77

Yes, theres no starter gear on the XL600 (not all) and also a more compact ac generator. The XL600 crank webs and balancer shafter are also much much lighter than the XRL. The XLs crank webs have forged scallops - it generally has a much 'nicer' final fish than the 650L. Hence why the engine will spin up quicker.
Just building a XRL/XL/XBR hybrid as a second road race engine.


Can you provide some feedback regarding crank webs and flywheel?
I'm modifying an NX650 engine with a '87 XR600 head (twin port) and the engine is still apart.
Revability (!) is something I like (with the engine's safety considered too) so your post got me thinking. Can I swap the webs, lighten the flywheel and what not to make the engine rev more freely?
Any input appreciated, thanks.

Manos

  • zrxer

Posted August 06, 2009 - 04:51 AM

#78

zrxer,

Are there any news with the hybrid?
I'm following your posts because I'm doing something similar myself, starting with a Dominator650 engine.
Have you dynoed yours?

Any update appreciated

Thanks
Manos


Hi Manos. Not really much to report. I removed the starter and took it to a buddies electrical repair shop to see if he could "juice it up" at all. I'm gonna build bigger battery cables as well.
I'm planning on pulling the engine completely down this winter and do a kickstart install. I'll document that too.

  • Manos

Posted August 06, 2009 - 10:34 PM

#79

Hi Manos. Not really much to report. I removed the starter and took it to a buddies electrical repair shop to see if he could "juice it up" at all. I'm gonna build bigger battery cables as well.
I'm planning on pulling the engine completely down this winter and do a kickstart install. I'll document that too.


So, I take it you don't have any dyno figures, do you?
I'm a big excited with my project but at some point I got a bit worried with the fitment of all the different bits and pieces I am about to bolt together. To start with, I'm a bit worried if the +1mm bigger in/exh valves, coupled with the 148x9 camshaft will clear the piston at TDC during overlap. Then I worry about too much compression. I'm planning to fabricate and install a 1.4mm base gasket to give me an estimated 10.5:1 ratio (I've assumed that the volume inside the valve pockets is about 1.5cc). Then I played a little with valve springs and finally decided to use stock inner and aftermarket (heavier) outers. This combo will be some 40% heavier than stock which (I hope) will be safe at high revs. I guess I'll have to make a demo assembly, turn the engine by hand and see if anything hits anything else...
I also measured the thickness of my piston (101mm JE 10.5:1 comp for a 650L). I didn't like what I found. I like JE's very much but thickness inside the valve pockets was some 3.8mm, while on the deck land it is just under 5mm. Not a lot there to machine out.

We'll see how this goes. If you get any hp/tq figures, do tell

Thanks
Manos

  • zrxer

Posted August 08, 2009 - 11:09 AM

#80

So, I take it you don't have any dyno figures, do you?
I'm a big excited with my project but at some point I got a bit worried with the fitment of all the different bits and pieces I am about to bolt together. To start with, I'm a bit worried if the +1mm bigger in/exh valves, coupled with the 148x9 camshaft will clear the piston at TDC during overlap. Then I worry about too much compression. I'm planning to fabricate and install a 1.4mm base gasket to give me an estimated 10.5:1 ratio (I've assumed that the volume inside the valve pockets is about 1.5cc). Then I played a little with valve springs and finally decided to use stock inner and aftermarket (heavier) outers. This combo will be some 40% heavier than stock which (I hope) will be safe at high revs. I guess I'll have to make a demo assembly, turn the engine by hand and see if anything hits anything else...
I also measured the thickness of my piston (101mm JE 10.5:1 comp for a 650L). I didn't like what I found. I like JE's very much but thickness inside the valve pockets was some 3.8mm, while on the deck land it is just under 5mm. Not a lot there to machine out.

We'll see how this goes. If you get any hp/tq figures, do tell

Thanks
Manos


Manos-

I went to the Harley dealer today to get oil and filter for my new-to-me '04 Buell XB12S, and while there, inquired about a dyno run. They said no problem. $105.00 per hour. I won't be doing any tuning, just go in, make a run, and see what it puts down.
I do have to get the starting issues dealt with before hand though. Don't want to go in there and burn time trying to get it running. lol

Do you have any pics of your build? Are ya gonna document it?

Regarding your piston to valve worries; put some clay (or Playdough) in the valve pockets, assemble the top end, spin it by hand a couple of revolutions then disassemble. Measure the flattened area where the valve hit and see what you come up with clearance wise. Oh, when you put the clay on the piston, shoot some WD-40 or similar oily substance on the valve face so it doesn't stick to the clay.





Related Content

Forums
Photo

DirttyPig 2005 Xr650l Prroject! by braapmebb1moretime


Dirt Bike   Make / Model Specific   Honda   XR600/650
  • 22 replies
Forums
Photo
Supercross

Supercross Preview 2017 Part 1: Championship Contenders by Chris Cooksey


Dirt Bike   Special Interest Forums   Pro Racing
  • Hot  171 replies
Forums
Photo

ignitech programmable XR650L CDI by brianhare


Dirt Bike   Make / Model Specific   Honda   XR600/650
  • Hot  60 replies
Reviews

Honda XR650L 2017 by Chris.GVS


Honda XR650L 2017
  • - - - - -
  • 0 reviews
Wiki
Want to add a kickstart to your XR650L?  Here's how - last post by clc3251

Want to add a kickstart to your XR650L? Here's how


Articles
  • 1 reply
 
x

Join Our Community!

Even if you don't want to post, registered members get access to tools that make finding & following the good stuff easier.

If you enjoyed reading about "" here in the ThumperTalk archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join ThumperTalk today!

The views and opinions expressed on this page are strictly those of the author, and have not been reviewed or approved by ThumperTalk.