Xl600R/XR650L Hybrid


171 replies to this topic
  • XR_RON

Posted March 23, 2008 - 08:50 AM

#21

Big red pig-guinea pig,cool the moniker fits perfect,It looks like you already have the 650 engine installed in your 600 thats a open bolt hole i see,i dont care how good a friend he is if he mucked up your cylinder,he aint that good of a machinest,more like an apprentice,its business,cylinders aint cheap,hed have to make good on that.

  • XR_RON

Posted March 23, 2008 - 09:09 AM

#22

Glad you got it togther,my last post was made before reading the whole thread, I was pissed the dude mucked up your cylinder,forgive me if it dont make good sense.Nice set up,I like it.

  • HeadTrauma

Posted March 23, 2008 - 11:01 AM

#23

If you live near one of the four currently open stations in this state that sell E85 to the public, that's a less expensive alternative to mixing $8/gal race gas. Economy goes down 15-30%, but power increases about 15% and it's ~105 octane. As soon as I can get E85 without having to drive to Brentwood or Tulare to get it, I'm going to try it on my 600. It has started rattling around 60%+ throttle after long rides in the heat, even on CA's terrific 91 premium gas. :excuseme:

Nice build, BTW. :confused:

  • XR_RON

Posted March 23, 2008 - 12:18 PM

#24

Some riders have been installing a oil cooler with a neat little cooling fan on there XR650s,there is a full post with pictures on 4 strokes web site,It may help out your bike to,check it out.

  • cleonard

Posted March 24, 2008 - 11:07 AM

#25

If you live near one of the four currently open stations in this state that sell E85 to the public, that's a less expensive alternative to mixing $8/gal race gas. Economy goes down 15-30%, but power increases about 15% and it's ~105 octane. As soon as I can get E85 without having to drive to Brentwood or Tulare to get it, I'm going to try it on my 600. It has started rattling around 60%+ throttle after long rides in the heat, even on CA's terrific 91 premium gas. :excuseme:

Nice build, BTW. :confused:



I get pinging on my stock 9:1 compression engine after a long heat soak like you describe. I can mostly get rid of it by going to a 165 or so main jet, but then the bike is way rich and only get about 33 mpg.

Another possibility is mixing your own with some toluene(114 octane) or xylene(117) from Home Depot, etc. A 10% mix will boost 91 to about 93.5 or 94. It is also slightly higher density so it will run slightly richer.

  • pwrpapa

Posted March 24, 2008 - 05:26 PM

#26

Where was the head cracked?
Do you have any pictures of it? Another common problem for the 600 motor.
The ones I've seen were cracked from the plug to both ex. ports.
But they still ran.......

  • pwrpapa

Posted March 24, 2008 - 05:34 PM

#27

Another possibility is mixing your own with some toluene(114 octane) or xylene(117) from Home Depot, etc. A 10% mix will boost 91 to about 93.5 or 94. It is also slightly higher density so it will run slightly richer.


Do you think that would eat the plastic parts in the carbs, like the floats?

  • zrxer

Posted March 24, 2008 - 06:03 PM

#28

XR_RON and HeadTrauma, thanks for the kind words regarding the build.

Cleonard, what is this toulene and xylene of which you speak?

Pwrpapa, the head was cracked exactly where you said the ones you have seen were cracked, between the plug and exhaust port. No pics.

  • HeadTrauma

Posted March 24, 2008 - 06:59 PM

#29

Toluene is a non-polar petroleum industrial solvent with a high R+M/2 octane and as a fuel is similar to gasoline. Same with xylene. The chart I have gives toluene a research octane of 111 and a motor octane of 95, but it varies depending on who you talk to.

I get pinging on my stock 9:1 compression engine after a long heat soak like you describe. I can mostly get rid of it by going to a 165 or so main jet, but then the bike is way rich and only get about 33 mpg.

Another possibility is mixing your own with some toluene(114 octane) or xylene(117) from Home Depot, etc. A 10% mix will boost 91 to about 93.5 or 94. It is also slightly higher density so it will run slightly richer.


Yeah, but I'm dying to try the E85. Aircooled engines really benefit from the alcohol's reduced cylinder head temps and cooler intake charge. Not as much as methanol, but I don't want to rot my fuel system with methanol or deal with the 50% reduction in economy(and ultimately 4x higher cost) :excuseme: .

I'm already running decent sized jets, too(65/168). Now that the weather warmed up, it's only going to run even richer. :confused:

  • zrxer

Posted March 25, 2008 - 05:49 AM

#30

Interesting. Thanks HeadTrauma!

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  • Motosprtman

Posted March 25, 2008 - 10:45 AM

#31

Motosprtman, look REAL HARD at the engine in the XL600 in the previous pics. :excuseme: LOL Bruce


DOH! :confused:

  • mrfixit54016

Posted March 25, 2008 - 10:48 AM

#32

I think you guys may want to read a little more about it. I know my truck does not get as good of mileage with the stuff, and it is designed to run with it...

The article below discusses some of the potential problems.

http://running_on_al...d.com/id26.html

  • Denn10

Posted March 25, 2008 - 11:04 AM

#33

ive seen a station with E85 added to the fuel, i dont know the percentages but maybe ill try it in the pig and see if i can tell a difference in it at all. when i found it i crept to the next station when i was in my car cuz ive heard of th e mileage loss and i drive 90 a day so at prices in the last year every mile counts to me.

  • HeadTrauma

Posted March 25, 2008 - 09:34 PM

#34

Not to hijack this thread, but do you remember where that station was?

I think you guys may want to read a little more about it. I know my truck does not get as good of mileage with the stuff, and it is designed to run with it...

The article below discusses some of the potential problems.

http://running_on_al...d.com/id26.html


Anything that has a net heat of combustion and/or a stoich air:fuel ratio that is lower than gasoline will cause a drop in miles per gallon. Fuel consumption goes up by anywhere from 15-30% with E85.

I would also question the sanity of the person that made that web site. It is far and away more expensive to make ethanol yourself. You'd be lucky to make it for $15/gal on a small scale not including the time, work and specialized equipment, not to mention the legality of distilling your own alcohol without a license....:prof:

That's the last I'm going to say about it. I've derailed zrxer's thread enough already. :bonk: I have my own alcohol-related thread going anyway.

  • cleonard

Posted March 25, 2008 - 09:57 PM

#35

Toluene and xylene are generally used as solvents. They have very high octane rating and one big bonus is they are already a component of the gasoline that you and I buy at the pump. Because of this they should be very compatible with fuel system components. They do have a slightly higher density and a higher carbon to hydrogen ratio than the average for gasoline. Adding either will tend to make the resulting blend burn richer than the starting pump fuel. If you only mix 10% or 15% the effect is small.

The numbers that I have seen are

Toluene RON 121 MON 107

There are three isomeres of xylene each with different properties. The number that I have for xylene is RON 118 MON 114.

These numbers are for the pure fuels. Both toluene and xylene have mixing octanes of 105 or so. That means that they don't do as well as you might think.

The down side is that toluene has a higher boiling point than gasoline and xylene is even more. This can cause vaporization issues at cold temps, but that is not too much on an issue in a bike engine. It would be a problem if you tried to run 50% or something crazy.

Thjere are other downsides like reduced flame speed as well. I'd use a 10% mix to add a couple of octane points. That's the most though, and I would use toluene.

  • zrxer

Posted March 26, 2008 - 05:15 PM

#36

Great info. guys! :prof: Much appreciated.

  • Zombie_Stomp

Posted December 16, 2008 - 10:54 AM

#37

I have a few questions about the build.

1) The cylinder-to-bottom-end bolts must have been the same size since there is no mention of any machine work on them. I know it's too late now, but did you think about getting the head machined and the cylinder re-drilled and tapped to put in the 9mm bolts that the 650 uses to support the extra force?

2) You are using dual carbs. These are the stock xl600 carbs? Are they re-jetted, and if so, how? I'm curious how the mixture is. Plug chops yet? Now that you've put the battery in the airbox, and must be using pod filters, the pods are probably leaning the mix further, so I'm curious as to the state of mix.

3) I hope they left the kickstart shaft hole in the interior of the right engine case for you! That has been a concern of mine in doing this swap besides pulling the e-start flywheel and hoping I can get the xl600 one on and fit the side cover. I'm curious how that will turn out.

4)The cam chain: I noticed the difference between my (1998) XR600 and (1983-87) XL600 cam chains too. Did you have to change the bottom sprocket for an XL one or what? I wasn't clear on how you handled that aspect of the swap.

One reason you may be having starting problems with that top end is if you did not use the auto-decompression camshaft from the XRL (which has the thinner chain to make room). For the rest of you who have not been inside one of those, there is a special clutch on some of the later xr600s and probably the xr650L on the camshaft that opens an exhaust valve automatically when the engine is kicked or spun at a low rpm. When it is spinning fast enough, that clutch locks up and stops decompressing. i've heard of xl600s being kitted out for 650 so if you can fit a kickstart, it should still be kickable.

I've also thought about putting the xr650l crank into the xl600 cases and going from there. Perhaps that would require a little machining to get it in. Then the only other mod I could think of would be to enlarge the holes in the head and cylinder and re-tap the cylinder holes to fit 9mm bolts to handle the extra force.

I'm curious to see the progress you make so that yours can be the guinea pig, and mine can be the prototype!

One more thing, I think I see xr650L forks on there, or at least XR forks with an XRL top triple clamp to house your key ignition like I'm planning on doing. Are you going to raise the rear suspension, and if so, how? I'm in the process of making a raising link for mine. I've got the XR forks on the way and the xr650l upper clamp is here .

I give this project an outstanding A+! :thumbsup:

Oh yeah, here is my dream bike:
Posted Image

  • zrxer

Posted December 16, 2008 - 06:20 PM

#38

Alright Joel, I'll see if I remember what I did here.

1) The bottom cylinder bolts are indeed the same. And no I did not even think about going with the larger bolts. The 8mm seem to do just fine.......so far.
2) Yes. They are the stock XL600 carbs. I went fatter on the mains, although I don't recall exactly what sizes they are. I think I only went up about two sizes or so. I also shimmed up the primary carb needle with a little washer I found in my shop. I'm not done fiddling with them yet.
3) There is a kickstart shaft hole in the case but that is the least of your worries. UNFORTUNATELY the right end of the countershaft where the kickstart idler gear rides is NOT machined for the gear! So you either have to install an XR or XL 600 countershaft and gears or have the XR650L countershaft machined to accept the gear. :smirk:
4) I did not have to change the cam chain sprocket on the crank. I used the XR650L cam chain and guides as well as the cam sprocket. I had to install the cam sprocket on backwards to get the upper and lower sprockets to line up properly.

As far as the auto decompressor is concerned, you can't use them on the early (dual carb) heads. There is no provision for them to exist there. Had there been, I most certainly would have used one.

The front end. Yes it is a complete '93 XR650L. I have since lowered the forks in the tripples about as far as they can go. When I got the bike, it had a raising link installed. I removed it, but since installing the 650L front end, I think it needs to go back on.

Thanks for the A+! I appreciate the positiveness. LOL

And yes, that's a bad a$$ 600 you have pictured there. :thumbsup:

  • Zombie_Stomp

Posted December 16, 2008 - 07:32 PM

#39

Alright Joel, I'll see if I remember what I did here.

1) The bottom cylinder bolts are indeed the same. And no I did not even think about going with the larger bolts. The 8mm seem to do just fine.......so far.
2) Yes. They are the stock XL600 carbs. I went fatter on the mains, although I don't recall exactly what sizes they are. I think I only went up about two sizes or so. I also shimmed up the primary carb needle with a little washer I found in my shop. I'm not done fiddling with them yet.
3) There is a kickstart shaft hole in the case but that is the least of your worries. UNFORTUNATELY the right end of the countershaft where the kickstart idler gear rides is NOT machined for the gear! So you either have to install an XR or XL 600 countershaft and gears or have the XR650L countershaft machined to accept the gear. :smirk:
4) I did not have to change the cam chain sprocket on the crank. I used the XR650L cam chain and guides as well as the cam sprocket. I had to install the cam sprocket on backwards to get the upper and lower sprockets to line up properly.

As far as the auto decompressor is concerned, you can't use them on the early (dual carb) heads. There is no provision for them to exist there. Had there been, I most certainly would have used one.

The front end. Yes it is a complete '93 XR650L. I have since lowered the forks in the tripples about as far as they can go. When I got the bike, it had a raising link installed. I removed it, but since installing the 650L front end, I think it needs to go back on.

Thanks for the A+! I appreciate the positiveness. LOL

And yes, that's a bad a$$ 600 you have pictured there. :thumbsup:


So what IS the other end of the countershaft like? Just a stub? I have seen that they won't machine anything that doesn't need to be machined once the design has been updated, which makes me surprised that they bothered with the kickstart shaft hole. I guess they were using the same engine cases for the xl600s that they're making simultaneously. For some reason(s), the manufacturing process leaves one part of the kickstart puzzle there for you to assemble but not the other.

It may not be worth machining that countershaft to work, either, it has oiling passages in it since it spins continuously, I remember this from the time I had one get all galled up on that end. It's the kickstart "idler" gear. That'd be a difficult job to machine, if you can even get the size of the oil hole right, and remember to machine a groove a step smaller where the oil hole is on the radius of the shaft. Good to know in advance that I won't be getting a good countershaft out of the xr650L.

I tried to use one (a countershaft) from an '85 XR in my '83 XL cases, and I thought I'd gotten it to work after a combination of stacked gears and spacers let me finally fit the case halves together, but it left me without 2nd gear since I didn't realize I was missing 2nd when I test shifted it. Lesson learned.

WAIT! before you reinstall that raising link, take some measurements for me! I'm planning on making one for my XL, and I need a good reference to go by. I'm not sure what the formula is for raising it- X amount shorter than stock equals x amount of rise in suspension.
Posted Image
Here is the thread for the link fabrication. Any and all info about the raising link including a photo is mega-helpful.
If you knew where to buy one should I realize I can't make it work building one, that could prove useful as well.

  • Zombie_Stomp

Posted December 16, 2008 - 08:38 PM

#40

Oh, P.S., do you have an XR650L 9mm bolt set? If so will you sell it to me or at least show a photo or measure them and tell me about how many of each length are in the set of six? The schematic is showing two sizes, 9x83mm (#7)and 9x110mm (#8), how many of each? It does still use six bolts right?
Posted Image





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