Which oil in 07 450?


68 replies to this topic
  • 642MX

Posted November 17, 2007 - 06:54 PM

#41

I've seen the inside of sportbike motors of people who were using that stuff. Not good.


But I don't have a sport bike. But, I have seen the inside of my 426 after a year of using Rotella. It looked identical to what it looked like after a year of using Motorex. If you keep your oil changed, the inside of the motor stays clean. :thumbsup:

  • twenty34

Posted November 17, 2007 - 09:01 PM

#42

A-W-E-S-O-M-E! Another oil thread! :ride:

:thumbsup:


Yea, I was thinking the same, but I guess new users are coming on all the time - makes sense...Good for site "stickiness" if nothing else.

  • millwright

Posted November 18, 2007 - 01:46 AM

#43

Of all the people i hear talking about this oil or that oil....I believe Grayracer is the most informed i've heard....He isn't using car oil because he knows better.

Well, I bet good money that he wouldn't be able to discern between a so called "car oil" and a so called "motorcycle oil" by looking at the elemental analysis of them.
Folks, most motorcycle oil, that is certified by JASO, is a car oil to begin with.
In fact, many of them are API SG (obsolete) rated PCMO's that have had a motorcycle placed on the label, along with some BS marketing words.
Usually a half-truth lie such as "Contains NO friction modifiers!"

There are so many oil threads, because so many pass around info they hear, or read, or think up. Most of which is not the complete story.
Others simply can't help but continue a circle of ignorance by swearing to things that they have no idea about. Their verification is usually some BS marketing spiel, what an A level racer told them, or the words of a self proclaimed tribologist who has done very little good research.

Some will fire back that MA certified oils use API SG formulas because they still have higher levels of phosphorus than the latest API categories do, and that our modern bikes need this high level of additive.
Thing is, that is simply not why most of these oils are SG-SJ rated. The truth is that the expense of producing a new oil, that has a brand new formula specifically designed with motorcycles in mind, would be so far out of line with their sales that it would be a failing venture before it started.
It is the many tests that are required to make the oil acceptable to JASO, that is so expensive. JASO states that all an MA-MB fluid must do to be qualified is be previously certified API SG or later.
Well, since oil mfgs sell packaged formulas that already have the API certifications bought and paid for, the bottler buys one of these packages and then has the small amount of JASO required testing and VIOLA! A motorcycle oil.
And they can't change this formula to enhance it's properties, as it would queer the previous certification. SO what you basically have is an obsolete API category car oil, that has a motorcycle on the label.

  • ThumperKid250F

Posted November 18, 2007 - 02:43 PM

#44

I'm not starting a internet fight. I was simply stating an opinion (just like everyone else).

And for the record, the ENGINEERS at Rekluse recommend "car oil" for dirt bikes. :thumbsup:



i no i was just saying that i noticed it too, and yes rekluse does recommend rotella non syn

  • ThumperKid250F

Posted November 18, 2007 - 02:45 PM

#45

and on a other side note. i really dont think it matters what oil your useing as long as it good oil. me i change my oil after every 2 rides and befor a race and right after a race. so to me spending 10$ a quart on oil doesent make sense

  • 642MX

Posted November 18, 2007 - 03:01 PM

#46

so to me spending 10$ a quart on oil doesent make sense


Exactly. :thumbsup: :ride:

  • 00YZ426FMRCD

Posted November 18, 2007 - 05:58 PM

#47

A-W-E-S-O-M-E! Another oil thread! :ride:

He is my take on oil. The best oil is clean oil. Keep it changed, keep it clean. Don't use an oil with the "Energy Conserving II" label on it. It could harm your clutch. I personally use Shell Rotella 15W40. Its cheap, available anywhere, and the Rekluse Auto-Clutch guys recommend it. Congrats on the new bike. :thumbsup:


Another Oil Thread... Many of us take this to heart... For the record - I recommend Sam's Wholesale 20w-40. :busted: Change the oil in the recommended intervals and use anything mentioned in this thread - And you will be fine.

  • 642MX

Posted November 18, 2007 - 06:05 PM

#48

For the record - I recommend Sam's Wholesale 20-40w.


Your running Sams oil now? I thought you where still using the rerefined Walmart stuff....:ride:

When are we changing those tires? :thumbsup:

  • 00YZ426FMRCD

Posted November 18, 2007 - 06:14 PM

#49

Your running Sams oil now? I thought you where still using the rerefined Walmart stuff....:ride:

When are we changing those tires? :thumbsup:



OK. I have to confess. Being LB (Low Budget) Racing I am running the Walmart stuff. Don't tell anyone as it helps with those necessary dead-kick starts at the local Harescramble races...Maybe sometime this week? Been busier than shit. I thought I would try to change them myself and punture a few inner-tubes 1st - then give you call :busted:

Thinking about LEOR this Friday or Sat. What do you think? Did you make it out this weekend?

PM ME and let me know.

  • 642MX

Posted November 18, 2007 - 06:27 PM

#50

Check your PM's....:thumbsup:

Visit the ThumperTalk Store for the lowest prices on motorcycle / ATV parts and accessories - Guaranteed
  • todds924

Posted November 18, 2007 - 06:36 PM

#51

I'm not starting a internet fight. I was simply stating an opinion (just like everyone else).

And for the record, the ENGINEERS at Rekluse recommend "car oil" for dirt bikes. :thumbsup:


I know the "Engineers" for Rekluse recommend "car oil" for there clutches. The engineers for all the japanese manufacturers recommend a JASO/MA oil for there motorcycles. And by the way, no internet "fight" by any means. I'm happy that your happy using your car oil. Thats why they make so many to choose from.:ride: Ride ON! This thread has made me tired......USE YOUR FAVORITE OIL AND CHANGE IT VERY OFTEN!!! Thanks guys!!!

  • grayracer513

Posted November 18, 2007 - 08:33 PM

#52

"Car oil", as used here is unfairly pejorative on the one hand, and actually inaccurate on the other; Rotella is a "truck oil", or "diesel oil" (a commercial grade).

Similarly, millwright uses the term "obsolete" to derogate JASO MA, when of course, that standard is quite current, and API SG/SH only became obsolete in the first place because the EPA demanded the reduction of zinc/phosphorus levels on the grounds that these elements were detrimental to catalytic converters (which is the reason the JASO oil standards were created to start with), and not because the succeeding grades were actually better in any way. These additives were at that time (and continue to be in many opinions) the best available anti-wear additives. It needs to be understood that these additives come into play only when the oil film fails to separate the lubricated components, allowing metal to metal contact. If this does not occur, then their presence or absence is a non-issue. Since that time, other compounds, principally variations on MoDTC (a moly friction reducer/anti-wear agent) have been advanced to the extent that they are now a viable substitute for very high concentrations of the Zn/P based AW additives (mostly ZDDP), particularly when used together with them.

The claim that motorcycle oils are all just "car oil" with a new label is also misleading and not entirely true. It is, regrettably, true in some cases, not not nearly in all. For one thing, the JASO specification also covers the coefficient of friction question as it relates to wet clutches, and there is nothing at all in API SG that can even be construed to address that. You can actually tell who paid for a new certificate and who didn't by looking at the label. Labels will either show the certificate logo (API and/or JASO), or it will say something like "meets", or "conforms to" a particular standard.

Once, a car oil would nave been completely inadequate for a motorcycle like the YZ450. Modern MX four strokes need an oil that resists foaming, oxidation, and thermal degradation to a high degree while providing excellent anti-wear protection (boundary lubrication). Car oils did not do these things so well in the "old days", but with the rise underhood temperatures, and the number of small, high revving engines in service, they have advanced out of necessity to the point where the best S and C grade oils do an excellent job on all of those counts.

However, most automotive and truck multi grade oils still fall short in the area of shear stability (the ability to retain viscosity at operating temperatures) when used as a trans lube. This is also true of far too many oils marketed as "motorcycle specific", too, unfortunately. There is some improvement being made in this area as the oil companies have apparently become aware of the problem (or that some of the public is aware of it). This problem exists in some oils that claim to meet JASO MA, even though a part of that standard calls for durability as a gear lube. Given that labeling as JASO MA clearly is no guarantee of the ability withstand such use, there is no way to know except by published lab tests or your own used oil analysis. The only exception that I know of is the label on one oil, offered in two grades, by one manufacturer. The label reads, among other things, "API GL-1", a legitimate gear lube, in addition to an engine oil.

Until and unless you know that your favorite 40 wt does not turn into a 25 wt as soon as you use it hard, my advice is to get something that does, or change it more often than you think you should.

  • todds924

Posted November 18, 2007 - 08:50 PM

#53

"Car oil", as used here is unfairly pejorative on the one hand, and actually inaccurate on the other; Rotella is a "truck oil", or "diesel oil" (a commercial grade).

Similarly, millwright uses the term "obsolete" to derogate JASO MA, when of course, that standard is quite current, and API SG/SH only became obsolete in the first place because the EPA demanded the reduction of zinc/phosphorus levels on the grounds that these elements were detrimental to catalytic converters (which is the reason the JASO oil standards were created to start with), and not because the succeeding grades were actually better in any way. These additives were at that time (and continue to be in many opinions) the best available anti-wear additives. It needs to be understood that these additives come into play only when the oil film fails to separate the lubricated components, allowing metal to metal contact. If this does not occur, then their presence or absence is a non-issue. Since that time, other compounds, principally variations on MoDTC (a moly friction reducer/anti-wear agent) have been advanced to the extent that they are now a viable substitute for very high concentrations of the Zn/P based AW additives (mostly ZDDP), particularly when used together with them.

The claim that motorcycle oils are all just "car oil" with a new label is also misleading and not entirely true. It is, regrettably, true in some cases, not not nearly in all. For one thing, the JASO specification also covers the coefficient of friction question as it relates to wet clutches, and there is nothing at all in API SG that can even be construed to address that. You can actually tell who paid for a new certificate and who didn't by looking at the label. Labels will either show the certificate logo (API and/or JASO), or it will say something like "meets", or "conforms to" a particular standard.

Once, a car oil would nave been completely inadequate for a motorcycle like the YZ450. Modern MX four strokes need an oil that resists foaming, oxidation, and thermal degradation to a high degree while providing excellent anti-wear protection (boundary lubrication). Car oils did not do these things so well in the "old days", but with the rise underhood temperatures, and the number of small, high revving engines in service, they have advanced out of necessity to the point where the best S and C grade oils do an excellent job on all of those counts.

However, most automotive and truck multi grade oils still fall short in the area of shear stability (the ability to retain viscosity at operating temperatures) when used as a trans lube. This is also true of far too many oils marketed as "motorcycle specific", too, unfortunately. There is some improvement being made in this area as the oil companies have apparently become aware of the problem (or that some of the public is aware of it). This problem exists in some oils that claim to meet JASO MA, even though a part of that standard calls for durability as a gear lube. Given that labeling as JASO MA clearly is no guarantee of the ability withstand such use, there is no way to know except by published lab tests or your own used oil analysis. The only exception that I know of is the label on one oil, offered in two grades, by one manufacturer. The label reads, among other things, "API GL-1", a legitimate gear lube, in addition to an engine oil.

Until and unless you know that your favorite 40 wt does not turn into a 25 wt as soon as you use it hard, my advice is to get something that does, or change it more often than you think you should.


AMEN!!!!!!!!!:thumbsup:

  • millwright

Posted November 19, 2007 - 02:39 AM

#54

If you read more closely, you will find that I did not refer to JASO standards as obsolete, but rather the API SG certification. Which is indeed obsolete, and is the going standard for JASO certifiable fluids.
And all the logic in the world won't change the fact that most all of the listed JASO certified MA-MB products are indeed nothing more than API SG-SJ oils that fell somewhere in the JASO friction testing.

You can actually tell who paid for a new certificate and who didn't by looking at the label. Labels will either show the certificate logo (API and/or JASO), or it will say something like "meets", or "conforms to" a particular standard.

This is not true at all. In fact, unless you see the actual JASO certified label, there is no assurance at all that the product is certified.
The only way to know is either the label, or by reading the updated list of JASO certified MA-MB fluids, which is published on a regular basis.
As of Nov.1 this is the list of JASO certified MA-MB engine oils.
http://www.jalos.or..../4T_EV_LIST.pdf
(Many will have a slightly different take on this thing when they see what oils are actually on the list. Oils their previous perception would not allow them to even consider)
Also, just where is it that JASO mandates that MA-MB fluids have any sort of prowess as a gear lube? Are you sure you are reading from JASO T 903:2006?

And GL-1 is not much to use as an indicator of the fluid being robust. Not at all. Also, oils designated as a gear lube by the API are reserved for 0w-10w multi-grades.
Let's see what API says about GL-1 rated fluids:

GL-1

This designation denotes lubricants intended for manual transmissions operating under such mild conditions that straight petroleum or refined petroleum oil may be used satisfactorily. Oxidation and rust inhibitors, defoamers and pour depressants may be added to improve the characteristics of these lubricants. Frictional modifiers and extreme pressure additives shall not be used.

(ATF makes a wonderful fluid in the clutch, yet will do poorly in a flat tappet cam situation due to the lack of EP adds.)

I think many make the mistake of thinking there are vast differences between oils marketed to cars and those marketed to trucks, or to motorcycles.
Rotella T, for example is not a "commercial truck oil" as was stated. The correct term for Rotella is "heavy duty engine oil". And the only thing that differentiates this oil, with one marketed to the car niche, is a slight variation and addition of some of the additives.
Yes these robust oils are sold to the diesel truck crowd, but they use the very same additives as so called "car" oils do, just maybe in different add levels.
Btw, straight weight engine oils sold to cars are also considered HDEO's, just like Rotella or Delo.

Grayracer, There have been some things happen since the install of the CAFE standards dictating additive levels. Many of these things can be read about at SAE. One is a study conducted that shows that oils with differing levels of ZDDP did not vary as much as once thought when it comes to the anti-wear properties. In fact, studies show that an oil with 1100ppm ZDDP performs on par with the same oil with only 600ppm ZDDP.
And ZDDP's main function is not as an anti-wear or extreme pressure additive, but rather it is used mainly because of it's anti oxidation/corrosion properties.

I'm very curious where you get your information about "motorcycle" oils being so much more shear stable than "auto" or "truck" oils?
That simply isn't true at all.
All of these oils use the very same base stocks as one another. Some use more polymers than others, and some use better bases than others. But there is nothing at all that would show that there is any difference in how motorcycle oils are mfgd, compared to auto or truck oils, to resist mechanical shear.
No, it's frequency of change that must be looked at when considering shear.
Mobil 1 15w-50 full synthetic will easily stay in grade during a 10,000 mile run in an auto, whereas the same oil will only last 3000-4000 miles in a modern dirt bike engine with a wet clutch. Oh, and there is no way on earth you can show us how Mobil Racing 4T 10w-40 or V-Twin 20w-50 are improved in the realm of shear resistance over their so called "Auto" offerings.

Again, I'm making the claim that most all MA-MB oils are nothing special. In fact most of them would not pass the current API standards. And the API standards have become increasingly harder to pass with each new designation.

These myths will never cease until folks decide to stop spreading misinformation. Thing is, the mfg's are in cahoots with the misinformation campaign, which makes it even harder to educate the generally wise public. Don't kid yourself and think they aren't.

  • FeliX 450

Posted November 19, 2007 - 11:11 AM

#55

"Car oil", as used here is unfairly pejorative on the one hand, and actually inaccurate on the other; Rotella is a "truck oil", or "diesel oil" (a commercial grade).

Similarly, millwright uses the term "obsolete" to derogate JASO MA, when of course, that standard is quite current, and API SG/SH only became obsolete in the first place because the EPA demanded the reduction of zinc/phosphorus levels on the grounds that these elements were detrimental to catalytic converters (which is the reason the JASO oil standards were created to start with), and not because the succeeding grades were actually better in any way. These additives were at that time (and continue to be in many opinions) the best available anti-wear additives. It needs to be understood that these additives come into play only when the oil film fails to separate the lubricated components, allowing metal to metal contact. If this does not occur, then their presence or absence is a non-issue. Since that time, other compounds, principally variations on MoDTC (a moly friction reducer/anti-wear agent) have been advanced to the extent that they are now a viable substitute for very high concentrations of the Zn/P based AW additives (mostly ZDDP), particularly when used together with them.

The claim that motorcycle oils are all just "car oil" with a new label is also misleading and not entirely true. It is, regrettably, true in some cases, not not nearly in all. For one thing, the JASO specification also covers the coefficient of friction question as it relates to wet clutches, and there is nothing at all in API SG that can even be construed to address that. You can actually tell who paid for a new certificate and who didn't by looking at the label. Labels will either show the certificate logo (API and/or JASO), or it will say something like "meets", or "conforms to" a particular standard.

Once, a car oil would nave been completely inadequate for a motorcycle like the YZ450. Modern MX four strokes need an oil that resists foaming, oxidation, and thermal degradation to a high degree while providing excellent anti-wear protection (boundary lubrication). Car oils did not do these things so well in the "old days", but with the rise underhood temperatures, and the number of small, high revving engines in service, they have advanced out of necessity to the point where the best S and C grade oils do an excellent job on all of those counts.

However, most automotive and truck multi grade oils still fall short in the area of shear stability (the ability to retain viscosity at operating temperatures) when used as a trans lube. This is also true of far too many oils marketed as "motorcycle specific", too, unfortunately. There is some improvement being made in this area as the oil companies have apparently become aware of the problem (or that some of the public is aware of it). This problem exists in some oils that claim to meet JASO MA, even though a part of that standard calls for durability as a gear lube. Given that labeling as JASO MA clearly is no guarantee of the ability withstand such use, there is no way to know except by published lab tests or your own used oil analysis. The only exception that I know of is the label on one oil, offered in two grades, by one manufacturer. The label reads, among other things, "API GL-1", a legitimate gear lube, in addition to an engine oil.

Until and unless you know that your favorite 40 wt does not turn into a 25 wt as soon as you use it hard, my advice is to get something that does, or change it more often than you think you should.


every time i see your post i keep wondering how many reputation points do you have? Always so informative :thumbsup:

  • todds924

Posted November 21, 2007 - 07:21 PM

#56

every time i see your post i keep wondering how many reputation points do you have? Always so informative :thumbsup:


Hey Gray, what is that amsoil your running anyway? I have never used it but i got a good connection with Amsoil....which product of theirs are you using?

  • grayracer513

Posted November 21, 2007 - 07:52 PM

#57

MCF "Synthetic Motorcycle Oil" 10w-40 mostly. Late July to early September I run MCV "Synthetic Motorcycle Oil" 20w-50 if it's really hot out. Those two are specific to the shared transmission application.

https://www.amsoil.c...efront/mcf.aspx

  • todds924

Posted November 22, 2007 - 11:10 AM

#58

MCF "Synthetic Motorcycle Oil" 10w-40 mostly. Late July to early September I run MCV "Synthetic Motorcycle Oil" 20w-50 if it's really hot out. Those two are specific to the shared transmission application.

https://www.amsoil.c...efront/mcf.aspx


Perfect! next race i see the Amsoil guy i have him slip me a couple cases!

  • bzackrie

Posted November 22, 2007 - 01:35 PM

#59

Valvoline 4 stroke Motorcycle Oil. $2.80 a quart

  • yamaha racing 230

Posted November 22, 2007 - 04:22 PM

#60

Valvoline 4 stroke Motorcycle Oil. $2.80 a quart


i think thats the best non synthetic oil imo





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