yz350f??


76 replies to this topic
  • grayracer513

Posted August 15, 2007 - 04:40 PM

#21

450 outdoors 250 2-stroke indoors...problem solved.

Not really. The privateer would still need a second bike.

You can not tell me a factory Yamaha YZ350F will not be putting out as much HP as 450, but at the sake of reliability.

That, we agree on.

  • Kenpo1

Posted August 15, 2007 - 08:34 PM

#22

maybe if the AMA heard what the ppl who ride the bikes think they would know better and not make the companys make the bikes.


Well, if they were into that, the two strokes wouldn't be in a pinch.

  • Ga426owner

Posted August 16, 2007 - 05:00 AM

#23

Yamaha had the perfect 4 stroke engine size way back in 1998. That's right, the YZ400F. It was the AMA/FIM who gave the 4 stroke engine such a big displacement advantage (at one time it was 650cc, then down to 550cc, and now the current 450cc) over the 2 strokes. OF course the factories, and everyone else, want the most powerful bike with the broadest powerband for their racing programs. As I recall, the YZ400F was perfectly competitive with 250 2 strokes, and even won the 1998 AMA 250 championship under Doug Henry. I'll grant that Doug was riding a full factory works bike (in the mold of the mid 80's works bikes) against "production" 250's, but the racing was not a runaway for the 4 stroke.

The AMA also changed the Supercross tracks to "make them easier for 4 strokes to get around". They sure do. JS, RC, Reed, and the other factory boys can just launch off jumps and go halfway down a straight, IN THE AIR!! No wonder lap times are so short for the lead guys!

The AMA/FIM created the problem of 4 strokes being too powerful, by allowing such a big disparity in engine sizes between 2 and 4 strokes. Now they want the manufacturers to fix the problem by investing millions of dollars to develop new bikes because the AMA/FIM say so?? Ain't gonna happen.

IMO, the AMA/FIM should stay the hell out of the bike making business.

One other minor point. What do you think the manufacturers will do if/when the AMA/FIM tells them to create a new bike because the AMA/FIM want them to? The manufacturers are likely to tell the AMA/FIM to shove it where the sun don't shine, and pull out of Professional Motocross entirely (then form their OWN sanctioning body and hold races for championships).

Just my 2 pennies!!



this is exactly true and the perfect example of how the AMA has spoken out of both sides of it's mouth and now has this crazy 350 4stroke idea spewing out of it's @$$. :mad:

  • Ga426owner

Posted August 16, 2007 - 05:03 AM

#24

450 outdoors 250 2-stroke indoors...problem solved.

Make the bikes quieter not one or two dbs, but a big drop like 89 db and that will slow the 450 down plus your ears will not be ringing after an indoor race.


Designing a new model I doubt is cheap and who do you think the cost will be past on to...guess look in the mirror. The YZ400 was the perfect engine size like mentioned above. You can not tell me a factory Yamaha YZ350F will not be putting out as much HP as 450, but at the sake of reliability.


DPW I agree with one caveat...add the 500cc for the the open class outdoor.:thumbsup:

And yes the 350 will be more money than a 450 because of all the new tooling and R&D that will have to be recouped by higher profits :thumbsdn:

  • SUnruh

Posted August 16, 2007 - 05:11 AM

#25

+1

remove whitelock and the problem is solved

  • grayracer513

Posted August 16, 2007 - 06:47 AM

#26

Yamaha had the perfect 4 stroke engine size way back in 1998. That's right, the YZ400F. It was the AMA/FIM who gave the 4 stroke engine such a big displacement advantage (at one time it was 650cc, then down to 550cc, and now the current 450cc) over the 2 strokes.

The YZ400 prototypes were built before the rules change, basically on the brainstorm of one Yamaha engineer. The plane was to come up with a four-stroke MX bike that matched up as well as possible with the then current 250 class, then see if they could get a pass to actually race it. The feeling was that if it were too big, or too powerful, it would be seen as having an advantage, rather than needing the displacement handicap. 400cc was the engineer's idea of where parity was reached. Except for the weight disadvantage, he was about right.

I'm pretty sure that while the FIM may have done just about anything, the AMA started out at 550cc. That number was based on no research or evaluation whatsoever, they just felt that a thumper could never win no matter how big it was. They retreated to 450 after the '97 SX win.

... JS, RC, Reed, and the other factory boys can just launch off jumps and go halfway down a straight, IN THE AIR!! No wonder lap times are so short for the lead guys!

Not all the pros like it that much, either. In fact, lap times are often restricted by the track layout. There are plenty of sections where the speed from corner to corner is entirely governed by the rhythm needed to traverse it. On those high flying triples you mention, it's just simple math that speeds would be higher without the jump. A bike travels farther in a parabolic arc than in a straight line, and it can go no faster than the speed it reached at the lip of the jump until it lands. Chad Reed once said that it isn't really racing if your wheels are off the ground more than they're on it.

The AMA/FIM created the problem of 4 strokes being too powerful, by allowing such a big disparity in engine sizes between 2 and 4 strokes. Now they want the manufacturers to fix the problem by investing millions of dollars to develop new bikes because the AMA/FIM say so?? Ain't gonna happen.

IMO, the AMA/FIM should stay the hell out of the bike making business.

One other minor point. What do you think the manufacturers will do if/when the AMA/FIM tells them to create a new bike because the AMA/FIM want them to? The manufacturers are likely to tell the AMA/FIM to shove it where the sun don't shine, and pull out of Professional Motocross entirely (then form their OWN sanctioning body and hold races for championships).

On the first two points, I completely agree, and I hope you're right about the third.

  • almostinvincible119

Posted August 16, 2007 - 09:23 AM

#27

+1

remove whitelock and the problem is solved


Whitelock isn't the problem, he is just a face. Like President Bush, he makes some decisions, but its up to the people in th background to finalize them.

  • TMAC25

Posted August 16, 2007 - 09:44 AM

#28

I second the stock bike idea.

  • proskier

Posted August 16, 2007 - 10:10 AM

#29

I think the 350 would be a great bike! In my case I am almost 200 pounds with gear on and I ride a 250f. I am a little bit big for the bike. I have Hotcams on it and the bike is nice and quick...but not quick enough. I love it because it is so lite and it doesnt wear me out right away. On the other hand the 450f is a beast. All the power in the world but hanging on to that thing compared to my bike is such a big difference. A 350 that weighs the same as a 250 but power comparable to a 450....I think they would totally take over the market. I mean what else could you ask for in a stock bike??

  • SkiDaddy

Posted August 16, 2007 - 10:18 AM

#30

Proskier, that's why I ride a YZ250 2 stroke!:thumbsup: Unfortunately, these won't be available forever...:rant: :rant: :rant: :rant:

Visit the ThumperTalk Store for the lowest prices on motorcycle / ATV parts and accessories - Guaranteed
  • 00YZ426FMRCD

Posted August 16, 2007 - 05:28 PM

#31

The AMA does want the premier class to be 350cc's. They think it will keep the racing closer and give the mid pack guys a level playing field, but the reality of it is: the fast guys will still be fast guys and the teams with the most money will have the best bikes. A 350cc bike won't help riders like Ryan Clark run up front with riders like Stewart.




Agreed... Good Point. Side note: You could put Carmichel on an old XR350 and he could still win!:crazy:

-RCD

  • warrior04

Posted August 17, 2007 - 01:21 PM

#32

the ama dropped the idea for bringing in 350 four strokes into racing a couple months ago. If you read in mxa magazine they talk about it. Also from what i heard all the top 5 companies refused to create a 350 four stroke because it would kill their 450 sales and they couldnt afford it after two strokes quit selling.

  • Dirtbiker05

Posted August 17, 2007 - 03:00 PM

#33

the ama dropped the idea for bringing in 350 four strokes into racing a couple months ago. If you read in mxa magazine they talk about it. Also from what i heard all the top 5 companies refused to create a 350 four stroke because it would kill their 450 sales and they couldnt afford it after two strokes quit selling.


i think u have it all figured out. :D

  • Kent Rathgeber

Posted August 18, 2007 - 10:15 AM

#34

grayracer513, the manufacturers pulling out of racing (a series, at least) has already happened. In 1982, several manufacturers pulled out of the Trans-AMA series, which resulted in the AMA suing the manufacturers (for what, and the outcome of the suit, I can't remember. Too many years and too many beers :smirk: in between).

The precedent has already been set. Without the support of the factories, there is no Professional MX/SX racing. I don't think that even the AMA is stupid enough to chew off the hand that feeds them.

Is the idea of a 350 4 stroke engine dead? Probably not. If the factories think they can develop, build, and sell enough to make money, we will see that bike up for sale. As an example, look at the YZ400F, or more recently, the Honda CRF150R. Both are bikes that were completely new and different than anything else available at the time, and both have had a profound effect on racing and riding. There were many naysayers when those bikes first came out, and now look at what sells the most.

It's just that the AMA/FIM, who don't know a damned thing about manufacturing, want to mandate a 350 four stroke. That's what has the factories in an uproar. They don't know if a 350 four stroke can be built on a reasonable budget, and sold for a reasonable amount, without jeopardizing the millions of dollars the factories have already invested in 150, 250, and 450 engines/bikes.

  • KillerHiller

Posted August 30, 2007 - 07:24 PM

#35

As an off-road rider/racer I'd buy one in a heartbeat if it weighed the same as a 250F. The 250F didn't have enough umph and the 450F wears me out too fast. Right now my YZ250 2-stroke fits the bill on the tight nasty singletrack.


Dito!!

  • Baumann

Posted August 30, 2007 - 08:36 PM

#36

350cc would be a great all-around size. But, the reason I bought a 450F is not because I 'need' the power because lets face it, 99% of us will never need it. It's because I can't wind the hell out of the bike, meaning I can't push the bike to it's limits=longer lasting bike, less rebuilds etc...

Think of it this way, a diesel revs to 2,500RPM merging onto a freeway, and my 4cyl toyota damn near redlines. Thats my theory behind buying a 450:prof:


I read this article about the 350 class and the retards at the AMA. Yamaha said they would not do it, even if they did it would take them until at least 2012 to produce it.

  • almostinvincible119

Posted August 31, 2007 - 07:39 AM

#37

Lets just drop this, Its not gonna happen, maybe if we put everyone on taller 150s everything would be evenly matched....but then, what would Travis Preston do?

Yamaha isnt gonna do it, Honda isnt gonna do it, and noone else is. I'd personally like to see 250 smokers indoors and 450s out. Just to keep the old premix dinosaur around...but its not gonna happen. The blue and orange two-strokes are the only ones that are gonna be around for 09

  • LPT1485

Posted August 31, 2007 - 08:00 AM

#38

350cc fuel injected weighing around 200 lbs? Making 45 hp or more? Sounds like a nice bike to me. Anyways....any word on when/if KawaHonsuzuyamaktm are going to incorporate fuel injection into their 450/250's?

  • almostinvincible119

Posted August 31, 2007 - 06:08 PM

#39

350cc fuel injected weighing around 200 lbs? Making 45 hp or more? Sounds like a nice bike to me. Anyways....any word on when/if KawaHonsuzuyamaktm are going to incorporate fuel injection into their 450/250's?


you there....you living in a cave with no wireless net? zuks got it bud

  • yamaha racing 230

Posted September 01, 2007 - 02:55 PM

#40

the 450 is nice but i dont think its to powerful





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