Anyone tried running methanol or E85? XR600 or anything else.

[martinfan30]

ufo's ????

[Denn10]

The RC-51 does not have a O2 senser but, my ST1300 has two O2 sensers. Makes a big difference on how much the computer can compensate for the fuel mixture.

UFO's use microwaves to use the salt water as an energy sorce. We are just getting to that technology. http://www.wkyc.com/video/player.aspx?aid=35660&bw=

I am working on getting one of the pilots of a UFO to help me increase horsepower for my 680cc bike. I thought he/she would help with a new engine but, they said, Honda has an agreement with them that they will noe give out that info.

LMAO thats good stuff!!!!

[tcj650]

I have used avgas 100ll it seems to work well and doesn't smell as bad as pump gas...

[HawkGT]

Why can't I edit my post? Is there a time limit or something? Post #15 above is suppose to say:

"...Nonetheless, I'm open to criticism and friendly debate..."

--NOT--

"...Nonetheless, I'm not open to criticism friendly debate...."

Not sure how I missed that until now.

[gimgim]

> Has anyone experimented with alcohol?

Long, long time ago, I've used rubbing alcohol in a XL125.

I was in Italy and the gas stations were all closed (Sunday). All I could find was a pharmacy ?

It was a pain to start and it smelled bad (In Italy they add colorant and smell to rubbing alcohol) was I managed to get home.

It was a one time thing though.

[HeadTrauma]

I have email notification turned on by default, but I never got any on this thread. Sorry I didn't come back to check earlier everyone.

There isn't much I can add to the chemistry angle. Lots of info already.

Once we distill the mash to 91% alcohol we dry it to 100% (200 proof) with Zeolite 3A.

Heh, is that molecular sieve material.....food grade?

[BWB63]

The Zeolite 3A means the pores of the Zeolite cristal beads (little rode balls) are @ 3 angstroms

There are different kinds and SIZES of Zeolite and here size matters the most. By size I am not referring to the actual grain size of the pellets but the internal size of the openings within the Zeolite. Water has a particle size of a little over 3 angstroms where as alcohol has a particle size of a little under 3 angstroms, so a Zeolite rated AT 3 angstroms will trap the water and not let it go. Now that is not to say that it will not adsorb the alcohol too! It will soak up whatever it can but water will displace the alcohol and water cannot get out while alcohol can. So, in the end you have alcohol without the water once the Zeolite is removed. Zeolite can be used forever, once it has been dried out in the oven.

[HeadTrauma]

That's pretty cool stuff. I always wondered about a practical way to get percentages better than the high 90s. I know it's for all intents and purposes impossible to get even 99% through distillation alone.

I just saw in the local paper that the only local dragstrip around here and only practical source for methanol is closing down in ~10 days. Bummer, guess I'll have to wait another decade until E85 is actually available at more than one pump in this state.

[XR680RR]

That's pretty cool stuff. I always wondered about a practical way to get percentages better than the high 90s. I know it's for all intents and purposes impossible to get even 99% through distillation alone.

I just saw in the local paper that the only local dragstrip around here and only practical source for methanol is closing down in ~10 days. Bummer, guess I'll have to wait another decade until E85 is actually available at more than one pump in this state.

What drag strip and methanol is closing up? I need some methanol for my bio-diesel project and I would like to by it at a better price.?

[HawkGT]

Isn't methanol fuel available from any VP distributer?

I just saw on FOX10 news last night that an ethanol plant just opened here in the Phoenix area. I believe all their production is initially going towards E10 but the "plant guy" they interviewed mentioned that E85 production is something they'd like to do. I think there's a single E85 pump in Tuscon and that's it for AZ.

[HeadTrauma]

What drag strip and methanol is closing up? I need some methanol for my bio-diesel project and I would like to by it at a better price.?

That would be Los Angeles County Raceway in Littlerock. I'm pretty sure the motocross track is staying around, though.

I have *heard* that if you buy methanol in 55gal drums and pick it up yourself, the price can get knocked down below $4/gal. Finding distributors that deal with small quantities and the public is the hard part.

Isn't methanol fuel available from any VP distributer?

I'm not sure, but the local speedshop wanted $8/gal for their methanol. The big bike shop around here wanted $10/gal and up for VP gasolines and didn't carry methanol.

[HeadTrauma]

So no one's been playing with the ethanol, huh? Guys over on turbomustangs.com have a 1000rwhp smallblock Mustang running on the stuff and a lot of other happy high-horsepower E-85 users. ?

[DrPie]

Ethanol has a high heat of vaporization. That means it cools a lot more than gasoline. My XR600 runs hot. That extra cooling would come in handy if you raise compression to better use the higher octane fuel.

QUOTE]

I have some of the same problems with heat too on my 600. I am thinking about doing some tests with it this spring. I have a 11:1 Wiseco already, and a spare head to shave a little off of. I just wonder about the jetting. I remember reading something about a 'dial-a-jet', not sure if they are still around. This could help if I had to go back to premium out on the trail in a emergency.

[HeadTrauma]

Now that some E-85 stations are starting to pop up around SoCal, I intend on being a guinea pig of sorts. Jetting isn't hard; you just need about 20-40% more fuel mass flow. This does not equate to a 20-40% increase in Keihin jet size, though. The 105 octane should be especially good for people with high compression pistons.

[DrPie]

A though popped into my head when you mentoned mass flow. Does E85 have the same specific gravity as gasoline?? I will have to find out. I just found out my company is going to be doing some major utility installations at a couple of Ethanol plants in Indiana. Looks like I'll be there for a few months, so might be able to ask some guys in the know.

[absynth01]

We just got E-85 fuel pumps locally -2.60 ish a gallon. As almost everyone else has figured out there are downsides. As it is I can't get fuel that is less than 10% ethanol for my machines without a major pain (NEW YORK law 10%)

Two things have happened since the e-85 push.

Boats that were not made for e-85 or have older fuel lines or tanks have been having problems nationally. The alcohol has been dissolving the glues and components for the tanks especially. I have lightweight metal fuel cell in my boat so I don't have to worry as much. I have seen an older I/O with a gummed up valve train due to the alcohol, motor no good. What's even worse, boats are constantly near water and alcohol has a great affinity to water. More maintenance for fuel seperators and such.

This was my most pissed off problem with E-85.

I bought a new Stihl farm boss chainsaw. Good saw. Last year, after 3 uses, I ran it dry and put it up for the winter. As Cleonard said alcohol is corrosive on our carbs and plating. After sitting all winter, I tried to start it. No go. It was less than a year old and took it in for a fix(warranty). To my surprise they hit me with a 68$ bill to fix it. The problem was a corroded bowl on the carb which plugged up the carb. After arguing with the shop, I just paid and took it up with Stihl through E-mail. After about 5 E-mails from Stihls "engineers" on the 10% rule in New York, They blamed me (of course) and I got stuck with the bill, because I wasn't using Stihl oil. I was using Klotz as I have for years, which is a better oil. No more Stihl crap at my company or personal use.

This is after ALL my machines started 6 twostrokes, and 7 4 strokes all layed up the same way. Drain two strokes(pre mix), fill 4 strokes.

This all comes down to who you will believe. I work for the largest automotive supplier in the world. My plant/division works on fuel systems and injectors. Specifically the E-85 fuel rails/ systems that go on vehicles. Unfortunately I am an engineer in building utilities, and don't work directly with E-85. I have talked to many fuel system engineers and have heard the same things said above. Seen the tests, played with the fuel, watched the dyno data, and read the logs. I even talked to the chem lab about the fuel issue with my saw. These are people that have much experience with E-85 and the results were the same. E-85 IS NOT FRIENDLY FOR USE IN VEHICLES NOT DESIGNED TO USE E-85 WITHOUT SOME TWEAKING. It is also worse on gas mileage. Sorry for the rant -Don't want others making the same mistakes!!?

[DrPie]

The fuel system is my biggest concern, as I would be pissed if the thing swelled an o-ring 40 miles from the nearest road. I did some reading on the Dial-a-Jet from Thunder Products.

http://www.thunderproducts.com/dial_a_jet.htm

It looks like it will provide the extra fuel, and the ability to adjust it back when on regular grade. Looks like it's going for around $80 most everywhere. Luckily I have a small shop around the corner here that has a dyno, so I can get some real numbers to report on. Have to get a Mr. Wizard set up with a couple of fuel tanks and some valving to minimize the wrench time.

[HeadTrauma]

A though popped into my head when you mentoned mass flow. Does E85 have the same specific gravity as gasoline?? I will have to find out. I just found out my company is going to be doing some major utility installations at a couple of Ethanol plants in Indiana. Looks like I'll be there for a few months, so might be able to ask some guys in the know.

The SG of E85 is 0.76 to 0.78 while 87 octane gasoline is 0.72 to 0.78 at 60-65°F according to the US Department of Energy. I would just choose jets to hit the middle range of lean/rich and leave it unless the engine wants more or less fuel. Unfortunately Keihin jet are measured by the physical size of the orifice and not by flow(whereas Mikunis are, I think). It might be necessary to do flow tests on the jets to get a mass/time value. Fortunately alcohols will usually tolerate a wider range of AFRs than gasolines. E85 seems to be even more forgiving than methanol based on some reports from the drag racing side.

We just got E-85 fuel pumps locally -2.60 ish a gallon. As almost everyone else has figured out there are downsides. As it is I can't get fuel that is less than 10% ethanol for my machines without a major pain (NEW YORK law 10%)

Two things have happened since the e-85 push.

Boats that were not made for e-85 or have older fuel lines or tanks have been having problems nationally. The alcohol has been dissolving the glues and components for the tanks especially.

This was a major concern from people switching over with cars as well, but it is starting to look like EFI cars from the '80s and later aren't going to have serious issues with the fuel system. Even people using Holley carbs(with a zinc body just like our carbs) have to report on accelerated corrosion. I'm not saying it won't happen, just that things look promising so far because it hasn't yet.

[absynth01]

headtrauma- I haven't had a problem in my Truck or cars with the blended mix. I have just had problems with the two-stroke. I do agree alcohol has a place for race apps, but for the bulk of us, blending fuels shouldn't apply. Now if you are running some sic motor, alcohol/nitromethane is the way to go!!! BTW storing nitro and alcohol is more volitile and breaks down at a faster rate than gasoline. Storing in a dark, DRY place is a must to keep it from degrading. The last gallon I bought(RC 20% nitro/alcohol) at 20$ a gallon, was good fuel. I lost about 15% by volume when it was stored over the winter.

[absynth01]

That would be Los Angeles County Raceway in Littlerock. I'm pretty sure the motocross track is staying around, though.

I have *heard* that if you buy methanol in 55gal drums and pick it up yourself, the price can get knocked down below $4/gal. Finding distributors that deal with small quantities and the public is the hard part.

I'm not sure, but the local speedshop wanted $8/gal for their methanol. ? The big bike shop around here wanted $10/gal and up for VP gasolines and didn't carry methanol.

Methanol and ethanol are different alcohols. One we get drunk on, the other will blind or kill you if injested enough. Methanol is "wood alcohol" derived from wood. Ethanol is produced by sugars (corn, cane, sugar) or anything with sugar in it. Corn just happens to have a high sugar content, is cheap to grow, and grows in many climates. I have not looked at the difference at SG, but imagine it is similar. Brazil uses Ethanol, by way of I believe sugar cane. There must be some reason we use Methanol here in the states for racing versus Ethanol. This is the question I now have. Just wondering if it has something to do with our Alcohol laws and sin tax on it? Or is methanol a superior alcohol to use for racing. At $2.50 ish a gallon for 90% Ethanol 10% gasoline this may be a good fuel to play with versus $4.00 and up for methanol, or race fuels. I'm still not sold on it, but will start to look into it. Anyone else with info????????