Titanium or Aluminum?



14 replies to this topic
  • Hick

Posted September 20, 2000 - 01:04 PM

#1

Hey all,

Clark Mason posted a source for Ti axles (Ti Advantage, thanks Clark) and I thought I would take the Ti plunge (having already taken the C fiber leap) with some other fasteners as well (GYT-R and/or Atomic22).

But then I was re-reading a back issue of DB (3/99 I think, yellow YZF thumper 450 on the cover) where they build a 215 lb. YZ250 using Ti bolts/axles, among other things, and a few things gave me pause…

1) GOOD LORD those axles are expensive! (I think the rear axle was over four-honey).
2) The article stated that corrosion between Ti and Al necessitated the use of anti-seize, this also made Loctite a bad idea.

It seems I’m always reading about anti-seize in tech articles on bikes and trucks, but corrosion is not allowed in New Mexico (only because moisture of any kind is prohibited) and never having seen a bolt “seize” I have never needed “anti-seize.” Is this just a type of lubricant?

Using aluminum bolts to thread into aluminum parts (triple clamps, bar mounts etc.) makes sense to me but I have the following questions about going with Ti or Al:

1) Is corrosion between Ti and Al a real problem (even in dry climate)?
2) Is using Loctite on Ti fasteners a no-no? Won’t anti-seize allow them to come loose?
3) Is Al weaker than Ti, and by how much (shear, tensile, rule-of-thumb, whatever)?
4) How much heavier is Al than Ti?
5) Who carries a good selection of Al fasteners?

I know some here have experience with Ti (help me out Clark), has anybody used Al fasteners? You could probably convince me either way without answering all those damn questions.

But I’d hate to have to drill out a twenty dollar bolt…

Thanks in advance for all comments, but smug replies from owners of 235 lb. orange bikes are not allowed. :)

  • Matt_Porritt

Posted September 20, 2000 - 01:24 PM

#2

Originally posted by Hick:

1) Is corrosion between Ti and Al a real problem (even in dry climate)?
2) Is using Loctite on Ti fasteners a no-no? Won’t anti-seize allow them to come loose?
3) Is Al weaker than Ti, and by how much (shear, tensile, rule-of-thumb, whatever)?
4) How much heavier is Al than Ti?
5) Who carries a good selection of Al fasteners?


1- What you're talking about is called 'galling'.
When 2 different metals are together with just a hint of moisture, They will sieze as one of them will act like an anode and be sacraficial (Alloy)

2-No anti sieze stops them siezing... some brands like Loctite (silver or red pot?) contain a securer also but itw weak enough not to worry about locking and the anti sieze does the trick.
IT IS NEEDED!! :)

3-As a rule of thumb Aluminium is 1/3 of the weight of steel and 1/3 strength.
Thats why the Honda weight no less than the rest.. you have to use 3 times as much to get the strenth so the weight advantage is minimal.
Al fasteners are therefore 1/3 of the strength and are easy to strip if you're putting a load on them.

4-As for Ti being lighter.. I thikn its under the 1/3 rule again.. 1/3 lighter.


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**Ride it like you Stole it!**
Matt Porritt
99 YZ400F
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  • MotoGreg

Posted September 20, 2000 - 03:45 PM

#3

Ti = 40% lighter than steel

Aluminum = 60% lighter than steel

------------------
The proceeding nonsense brought to you by MotoGreg
On two wheels (or 3) since 1970
'92 GSXR 7/11 (Until I get a shwangy 916)
'99 WR/YZ400F 'Cause thumpers rule and two strokes drool!
Visit my photo album for the bargain price of $75 - ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK - EVIL LURKS WITHIN!

  • So_Cal_Erik

Posted September 20, 2000 - 04:09 PM

#4

C'mon now Hick, I'm doing everything I can to restrain myself from making a "smart" remark about the weight issue. I have an aluminum subframe for sale, it's a BBR mint condition, 200.00 .. It will save 2lbs over stock and wont crack like Titanium will..
A 400.00 Ti. axle will barely save you a few grams of weight. Those magnesium hubs for sale in the GYTR catalog save you a lb to a lb and a half of unsprung weight for 1300.00!
front and rear. Ti is stronger than aluminum,
but becomes brittle over time. I personally would run the Ti bolts and screws. Somebody
out there makes chromoly frames for the 400/426's they save 10lbs over stock, but lord have mercy on your wallet! Anyway, have fun with it, just be wise, and don't waste your money, you might be better served by paying for MX lessons. Professional instructors will make you faster if you apply what they teach. Just my 2$ worth.
Erik

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So Cal Erik
Visit my club's site at <A HREF="http://www.ruts.org
" TARGET=_blank>www.ruts.org
</A>

  • Clark_Mason

Posted September 20, 2000 - 04:27 PM

#5

Hick

I use the Permatex silver anti-seize on all fasteners where different metals are involved and for sure when using aluminium nuts on Ti bolts or Ti bolts into aluminimum fork tripple clamps, etc. Torque them to specification and don't worry about it. Been doing this for the past 15yrs since I became a Ti fastner user and never had a problem. If you use a Ti nut on a Ti bolt also use anti-seize to prevent galling.

Yes Ti stuff is very expensive, however,over time I'v accumulated quite a bid to stuff and usually only need a few specialized bolts for any bike. The custom stuff, axels,swing arm pivot,all the linkages bolts and nuts, and maybe one or twe engine mounting bolts. The weight savings adds up when you do it all but it is expensive.

I'v purchased almost all of my aluminum stock of bolts and regular nuts, flange nuts, and nylock nuts from Indgo Sports 1-(770)719-3800. They also stock Ti fastners. You must know exactly what you want when you order ie six 6mm x 15mm x 0.8 thread pitch button head in natural aluminum color. They stock gold, aluminum, blue, etc. The heads can be button, hex, allen. So once you know how many, what diameter, what length, thread pitch, Material (al or ti) head configuration, and color (al only for color) you are ready to order.

I believe White Brothers is also a supplier of specialty fasteners. I larger cities check the yellow pages and you may find a local supplier.

Good Luck

Clark

[This message has been edited by Clark Mason (edited 09-20-2000).]

  • MotoGreg

Posted September 20, 2000 - 04:59 PM

#6

White Bros sells Manson Titanium products which are the highest quality but the price is also very expensive.

They also sell Pro-Bolt brand aluminum fastners which are crap. This stuff is junk, it's super soft alloy and I've had nothing but bad luck with it several times. The stuff Clark is talking about from Indigo Sports is made by Pogopolli in Italy and it is very nice quality, I use it on my streetbikes.

------------------
The proceeding nonsense brought to you by MotoGreg
On two wheels (or 3) since 1970
'92 GSXR 7/11 (Until I get a shwangy 916)
'99 WR/YZ400F 'Cause thumpers rule and two strokes drool!
Visit my photo album for the bargain price of $75 - ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK - EVIL LURKS WITHIN!

  • Hick

Posted September 21, 2000 - 01:22 PM

#7

Matt, Clark, Greg,

Thanks for the good information. I am leaning towards Al. Pinch bolts in my triple clamps because of the low torque on those relatively fat bolts. They should be plenty strong for that application, no? I just installed Cycra top clamp mounts for my Pro-Bends and need some longer bolts there (that is what brought on the Ti bolt cravings). Matt and Clark you have assuaged my fears about Ti. Thank you for letting me get on with the spending spree. Moto, thanks for the Al fastener info.

Erik,

My subframe IS aluminum, so don’t try and unload all your used blue parts on me you traitor. :D

The article I mentioned stated that two Ti axles and a swingarm pivot saved almost 3 pounds. The article’s heading indicated all the weight savings cost about $700 per pound. :)

There isn’t a functioning MX track, much less an instructor, within 200 miles of here. You are lucky to be in Calif (I can’t believe I just said that) and have access to shops with good mechanics, parts desks and inventory and be able to race every weekend and/or take lessons from good instructors. I may well be a natural motocrosser but I’ve never had the opportunity to try it. I sate my need for speed racing the Dez a few times a year, I’m willing to drive a bit for those.

On the other hand I am lucky to be in NM because I can ride just about wherever I please. I can ride a 50 mile loop from my back door, and only cross one street. Actually I could probably ride to Arizona from my back door if I had enough gas (someday I’m gonna put on my own dez race). I don’t have to watch out for other riders, just the occasional deer. The population of LA is likely 5 times the population of my whole state, and half of them live in one city about 270 miles to my north (Albuquerque).

And for two bucks your advice is way overpriced…

…but I guess you need the $$ to pay off that orange thing :D

I should be more civil because, I admit, I’d love to have a 520 MXC. And anybody considering a Ti axle obviously can’t be trusted to keep their $$ in their pocket. So thanks for the reply.

Visit the ThumperTalk Store for the lowest prices on motorcycle / ATV parts and accessories - Guaranteed
  • Vincent

Posted September 21, 2000 - 01:39 PM

#8

Hey Hick,

Where are you at in New Mexico? Im from Alamogordo...way south of Albuquerque too.

I dont have too many folks to ride with either, but have some great riding to do in my back yard, the Lincoln National Forest (Cloudcroft).

  • MotoGreg

Posted September 21, 2000 - 03:46 PM

#9

Aluminum bolts for the triple clamp pinch bolts does not sound like a very good idea to me.

------------------
The proceeding nonsense brought to you by MotoGreg
On two wheels (or 3) since 1970
'92 GSXR 7/11 (Until I get a shwangy 916)
'99 WR/YZ400F 'Cause thumpers rule and two strokes drool!
Visit my photo album for the bargain price of $75 - ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK - EVIL LURKS WITHIN!

  • JBM

Posted September 22, 2000 - 05:49 AM

#10

Hick, Vincent:
I'm also in New Mexico, a little north of you guys near Socorro. If you ever want to hook up for some riding let me know.
Hick, were you in that desert race they had here about 2 or 3 weeks ago? I wasn't there but I ride there all the time.

  • Hick

Posted September 22, 2000 - 05:56 AM

#11

Vincent,

I live north of El Paso. Cloudcroft is an easy drive for me though. Do you ride mostly high up (like around Weed) or on the south side of the Sacramentos (like around Sunspot)? Where do you ride from? I’ve been through there but I’m not familiar with the area.

A riding buddy and I have always talked about taking a day trip, if I knew a good trail head to go to this may actually happen. If you have the chance I’d appreciate an email with some trail information.

burt@123mail.net

Or you could just post a reply, but then everyone will know your secret riding areas :D

Thanks!!

MotoGreg,

I guess you’re saying aluminum isn’t strong enough for the pinch bolts. I figured that was a relatively low torque spec for an 10mm bolt. I didn’t consider the stress placed on the clamps by the forks though. I guess snapping those would be bad… :)

I should probably save my money (you know, for rent, groceries and other trivial things) and stick with steel.

  • Hick

Posted September 22, 2000 - 06:15 AM

#12

JBM,

Yeah, I entered that race. That is great terrain, I’d love to have that area in my back yard. Not that I had time to enjoy it, but the course dropped in and out of a beautiful box canyon sand wash littered with small springs (and big rocks). I ruined my front rim somewhere in one of those washes, I think (still waiting for that to get fixed). I do well in the whoops and so was passing lots of guys at the beginning and end of the loop but I don’t ride too well with a flat front tire so I fell a few times during the last loop (stalling it once, on the fifth kick a freight train of CRs passed me :) ).

But I’d almost consider the drive just to take that canyon again at a more leisurely pace, it reminds me of my dad’s ranch in Winston (nice scenery, lots of rocks). That area looks like it is ridden quite a bit, it is pretty whooped out. But that canyon is awesome. Can you follow that canyon all the way up into the forest?

Jeez I had no idea there were so many New Mexicans on the internet.

You know what a New Mexican is don’t you? An Okie who ran out of gas on his way to California… :D

  • Vincent

Posted September 23, 2000 - 06:14 AM

#13

Hick & JBM,

Sorry for the late post... didnt see your responses till today. I ride mostly around the southern areas of the Lincoln National Forest. Sunspot, Rim Trail, etc...I also ride out in the Red Sands area of the desert when the mountains get too much snow in the winter.

I park and ride mainly from the Sunspot highway. Only limited by my imagination in which direction I want to ride. Thats what is so awesome about having a thumper with a big gas tank :)

Lots of great riding up there for sure. Ive met lots of folks from Texas that like going riding in our mountains too.

I too am surprised there are so many of us in New Mexico reading this bulletin board. Maybe we should all get together and have a bit of a thumper fest up in the mountains.

I think that would be a great idea, my garage makes a great home base too if anyone breaks anything up in the hills, its not too far away for repairs.

I'll be home from Iceland (where I've been for a year) on October the 1st. I'm home for good this time, so I have a lot of lost time/riding to make up for!

Let me know what you guys think... Im always looking for new riding buddies and dont mind playing host/guide.



[This message has been edited by Vincent (edited 09-23-2000).]

  • Gary_Kessler

Posted September 25, 2000 - 10:28 AM

#14

Originally posted by Hick:
JBM,

You know what a New Mexican is don’t you? An Okie who ran out of gas on his way to California… :D



Yeah, or a Washingtonian that dried out before he made it to the Carribean. . . . :)

Hey, if you guys NM guys get serious about riding, a few of us Northerners could trailer our bikes down for the weekend. Be fun to ride somewhere with trees!


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'00 WR; YZ modified, DSP exhaust system & UNI air filter, Jetting by the firm of Clark, James & Bryan; soon to have Damper because I keep crashing (like it's going to help!). . .

  • Gary_Kessler

Posted September 25, 2000 - 10:32 AM

#15

Originally posted by MotoGreg:
...The stuff Clark is talking about from Indigo Sports is made by Pogopolli in Italy and it is very nice quality...

http://www.indigosports.com/

[This message has been edited by Gary Kessler (edited 09-25-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Gary Kessler (edited 09-25-2000).]




 
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