07 YZ 450F vs 07 KTM 300XC for OFFROAD


56 replies to this topic
  • Wiz636

Posted June 11, 2007 - 01:18 PM

#21

you can go much faster in the woods with the KTM than the WR/YZF hands down and less maintenence and lighter weight...


2007 KTM 300XC = 226 lbs
2007 YZ450F = 220 lbs

I have not personally ridden a KTM 300XC but I have heard good things (great powerband for offroad) and bad things (suspension is hard to get set right, if ever, vibrates).

I do however own an '03 RM250 that is set up very nicely for the woods and it eats KTM's for lunch in the woods. I also have an old YZ426 that is set up for the woods and it rips too. Now I am working on my new '06 YZ450 and it's going to be awesome.

I guess what I am trying to say is that it is all about proper set up and it boils down to if you want a thumper or a pinger. I guess if you wanted the best bike for the woods right off the showroom floor then the KTM 300 would get my nod.

By the way...I still do not understand the argument that 2T's require less maintenance. Unless you are really easy on a 2T they need to be opened up for rings and pistons far more often than a YZF needs for valve adjustments, rings, etc.

  • SC_Spode

Posted June 11, 2007 - 02:41 PM

#22

thanks I am blind.....I say get the 300....:thumbsup:


I'm with ya... it's that post-40 vision! :)

  • SC_Spode

Posted June 11, 2007 - 02:47 PM

#23

2007 KTM 300XC = 226 lbs
2007 YZ450F = 220 lbs


Don't make the mistake of believing the numbers the marketing liars, uh, guys put on the spec sheets.

The only way my 06 YZ450 weighs 220 lbs is by removing some important parts.

:thumbsup:

  • rbn14

Posted June 11, 2007 - 03:12 PM

#24

The biggest difference in the weight is how the bike carries it. The 450 carry the weight a lot higher, just look at how much taller the motor is, how high the carb is etc. As far as maintenance, its a bit of a toss up, to take care of them the way your supposed to you are going to have to do air filters and fluids religiously and top ends every 50hrs. BUT... if you get lazy and damage your bike a 2-t is much cheaper/easier to fix. Finally, the reason you ride is because it is fun, which bike will you have the most fun riding? They are both great bikes and can do anything well if properly set up. Ride both and pick the one that you think is more fun to ride.

  • rbn14

Posted June 11, 2007 - 03:14 PM

#25

i would go with the 450. There is no replacement for displacement, or torque.


You cant compare displacements of different type motors. I dont know the numbers but the 300 probably makes as much power as the 450, its just a matter of where it makes it and how it is delivered.

  • leanin

Posted June 11, 2007 - 03:21 PM

#26

By the way...I still do not understand the argument that 2T's require less maintenance. Unless you are really easy on a 2T they need to be opened up for rings and pistons far more often than a YZF needs for valve adjustments, rings, etc.


Typically the top end on a 300 lasts a long time because they are rarely stressed. Like a 450, it would take an off-road hero to scream the motor through the woods. Its also very easy and inexpensive to put new rings in them.

  • SC_Spode

Posted June 11, 2007 - 03:45 PM

#27

The biggest difference in the weight is how the bike carries it. The 450 carry the weight a lot higher, just look at how much taller the motor is, how high the carb is etc.


While the placement of the weight makes a noticeable difference in the feel of the bike, I find the dynamic forces (read: gyroscopic) from an engine make a huge difference in how it handles and how much effort it takes to roll it from side to side.

For anyone that doesn't believe it, ride a 250 MXer and then one of those 500AF conversion bikes. Virtually the same weight and placement but the dynamic forces from the reciprocating and rotating engine parts, along with the massive low-end torque difference, makes for two very different handling scooters.

For anyone that is unnaturally curious, you could take two bikes and measure the difference in the "lean force". Lean one against a wall at a predetermined angle. Attach a scale to the wall under the end of the bar and record how many pounds it displays. Do this at several different angles and then duplicate it using the EXACT angles for the other bike. This will give you a quantified figure for the static roll force difference.
And yes, you could always attach a line to a pull scale and hook it to the other side of the bar and lean it away.

Of course, this is only for the ultra-geeky out there :thumbsup: , but it would put some numbers to the "feel" issue.

:)

  • coffee

Posted June 16, 2007 - 10:31 AM

#28

...For anyone that is unnaturally curious, you could take two bikes and measure the difference in the "lean force". Lean one against a wall at a predetermined angle. Attach a scale to the wall under the end of the bar and record how many pounds it displays. Do this at several different angles and then duplicate it using the EXACT angles for the other bike. This will give you a quantified figure for the static roll force difference.
And yes, you could always attach a line to a pull scale and hook it to the other side of the bar and lean it away.

Of course, this is only for the ultra-geeky out there :thumbsup: , but it would put some numbers to the "feel" issue.

:thumbsup:


Have you seen any data posted / published of this type test?

Maybe with the engine running (in neutral) at a few rpms?

Signed - lazy ultra-geek....

:busted:
.

  • UpOn2PassingYou

Posted June 16, 2007 - 11:20 AM

#29

Im not too sure why you sold the wr and are looking into the yz450f...The wr was capable to have the same power characteristics as the yz, all you had to do was the cam mod and if you wanted get the yz intake cam...Well, too late now.

  • SC_Spode

Posted June 16, 2007 - 01:21 PM

#30

Have you seen any data posted / published of this type test?

Maybe with the engine running (in neutral) at a few rpms?

Signed - lazy ultra-geek....

:thumbsup:
.


I have not.

And (fortunately?) I've never gotten that bored or curious while dorking around with the bikes to try it. :thumbsup:

:busted:

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  • coffee

Posted June 16, 2007 - 02:21 PM

#31

Appreciate the answer.

My assortment of bikes is not complete enough to do something like that.... but it sounds like an intriguing thing to measure.

Here is an example of my ultra geekness:
http://www.thumperta...ad.php?t=447654

I probably got some things wrong - but I tried... Feel free to comment, etc.

.

  • ncmountainman

Posted June 16, 2007 - 02:53 PM

#32

if your a big guy i'd steer clear of the 300,i'm 6'3" 290lbs and my buddies 05 300 falls flat on its face when i try to wring a little bottom out of it;and thats with a narly pipe and some other stuff tuned for bottom. i run a 05 yz for tight eastern HS granted its fairly modded but i'd have to mod the hell out of that 300 to get the same performance. the new 450's are even more nimble and carry thier weight well,a few suspender mods,maybe some offset clamps and a rekluse and you'd be ready to stand up against anyone (of your skill level) on a ktm 300;especially since your already used to riding a 450:thumbsup:

  • grayracer513

Posted June 16, 2007 - 03:34 PM

#33

Im not too sure why you sold the wr and are looking into the yz450f...The wr was capable to have the same power characteristics as the yz, all you had to do was the cam mod and if you wanted get the yz intake cam...Well, too late now.

However, the WR is considerably heavier, and if he's thinking of getting an '06 or newer YZF, the difference in weight will feel like 50-60 pounds, even though it really isn't.

  • SC_Spode

Posted June 17, 2007 - 08:02 AM

#34

Appreciate the answer.

Mine assortment of bikes is not complete enough to do something like that.... but it sounds like an intriguing thing to measure.

Here is an example of my ultra geekness:
http://www.thumperta...ad.php?t=447654

I probably got some things wrong - but I tried... Feel free to comment, etc.


That's the most important part. :thumbsup:

There are no answer books out there, the only answers you get are the ones you find.

Regardless of what you think you did or didn't accomplish, your approach and methodology is to be commended. You took an organized, systematic approach in an effort to determine cause and effect in a system.

Great job in your pursuit of better understanding. :thumbsup:

Glad to see I'm not the only afflicted party. :cheers:

:busted:

  • coffee

Posted June 17, 2007 - 11:57 AM

#35

That's the most important part. :thumbsup:

There are no answer books out there, the only answers you get are the ones you find.

Regardless of what you think you did or didn't accomplish, your approach and methodology is to be commended. You took an organized, systematic approach in an effort to determine cause and effect in a system.

Great job in your pursuit of better understanding. :thumbsup:

Glad to see I'm not the only afflicted party. :lol:

:cheers:


Oh great! Another nerd! :lol:

Now if I could graduate to Spode in the skills department I would be all set! I keep falling down.... but I keep getting up. :busted:

Have a great Fathers Day.

:bonk:

.

  • skipn8r

Posted June 20, 2007 - 08:42 AM

#36

Glad to see I'm not the only afflicted party.

I knew there were some fellow geeks around here. We did a similar test with a slightly-lighter-than-stock 2005 CRF250X and a slightly-heavier-than-stock 2003 CR250R. We weighed both bikes ready to ride, with no gas. First we measured the weight at the front and rear tires (with a 2x4 under the un-measured tire to make sure the bike was level).

CRF250X
Front = 112.4 lb (47.67%)
Rear = 123.4 lb (52.33%)
Total = 235.8 lb

CR250R
Front = 110.0 lb (50.37%)
Rear = 108.4 lb (49.63%)
Total = 218.4 lb

CRF/X - CR Difference = 17.4 lb

Next, we laid each bike completely over so that it was supported only by each tire and the end of the handlebar. The handlebar was resting on the scale and we put 2x4's under the tires to make sure the pegs didn't support any weight.

Weight at the handlebar
CRF250X = 93.4 lb
CR250R = 74.6 lb
Difference = 18.8 lb

So essentially, while the 250X weighs 17 lbs more than the CR, you're picking up 19 more pounds at the handlebar (+- gas differences) when you drop the X compared to the CR.... And after several miles of pounding whoops, you can feel every pound :thumbsup:. It would be interesting if someone had the same numbers for other bikes.

  • SC_Spode

Posted June 20, 2007 - 10:27 AM

#37

I knew there were some fellow geeks around here.


Oh, as if you didn't know that before! :cheers:

You're such a... geek! :thumbsup:

How've you been?

I haven't been on much for a while until lately - life is getting in the way...

Your weight bias numbers don't surprise me. When I had the 03 CRF450 and 03 YZ450, I always wanted to do the same with them but never got around to it before I sold them.
I always suspected that the CRF had its lighter steering feel due to it having less weight on the front end. Everyone moaned about how the YZF felt to heavy compared to the CRF, but I loved how planted the YZF felt in the corners. The CRF could never be trusted. Every time I would start to get comfortable on it, I would be pushing it in the corners when it would suddenly push across one and scare me to death.
After much fiddling, I came to the conclusion that it didn't have enough weight on the front end. A couple of years later, Honda tilts the engine forward a bit to... put more weight on the front wheel.

I know a lot of people like the light steering feel but I'm starting to believe that some of the manufacturers are doing what you found with your scales: skewing the weight bias rearward to make the heavier thumpers "feel" lighter - but at the cost of handling.

Gray - I believe you've got an 03 and 06 YZ450. Any chance we can get you to check the bias on them to see if it might be contributing to the less-planted front wheel on the aluminum chassis?

Another experience: I rode a friend's 250 XCF several months ago in some extremely sloppy and slippery goop. The bike would initiate a turn very quickly, almost too quickly, while threading trees. When we came out of the woods onto some roads that looked like they were covered with 4-6" of black pudding, I got a bit concerned. I thought the quick turning bike would be nervous and skittish in the slime and put me on my head.
Surprise - it felt like the bike was bolted to the ground. I started looking for ruts to criss-cross to convince myself that I couldn't fall down if I wanted to. A remarkably stable bike.

When I got back on my 250X, the front end was nervous and twitchy feeling - like it didn't have enough weight on it to plant the front wheel.
Your findings confirm my suspicions as to why.

Good stuff! :thumbsup:

Hope all is well.

:busted:

  • skipn8r

Posted June 20, 2007 - 11:10 AM

#38

Oh, as if you didn't know that before! :busted:

You're such a... geek! :thumbsup:

How've you been?
I haven't been on much for a while until lately - life is getting in the way...

Guilty as charged! Doing well. Not sure if I told you, but we probably won't make it to SC this summer. Still possible; not likely.

Another experience: I rode a friend's 250 XCF several months ago in some extremely sloppy and slippery goop..... Surprise - it felt like the bike was bolted to the ground. I started looking for ruts to criss-cross to convince myself that I couldn't fall down if I wanted to. A remarkably stable bike.

Now that sounds like my kind of bike :thumbsup:.

  • SC_Spode

Posted June 20, 2007 - 11:13 AM

#39

Guilty as charged! Doing well. Not sure if I told you, but we probably won't make it to SC this summer. Still possible; not likely.



Hate to hear that. :busted:

But hey, we do have Fall here and rumor has it that it's actually cooler than summer! :thumbsup:

:thumbsup:

  • skipn8r

Posted June 20, 2007 - 01:00 PM

#40

But hey, we do have Fall here and rumor has it that it's actually cooler than summer! :thumbsup:

If not this Summer/Fall, definitely by Christmas time :thumbsup:.





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