JE Piston 13.5 to one in 450f


58 replies to this topic
  • CBDaddy

Posted December 31, 2008 - 02:01 PM

#41

In the case of JE the pistons are forged by PFP in Montebello CA. The forge shop has the forging dies and drop cutters manufactured for them by RONDEE Die Inc. RONDEE uses very little CNC and almost 95% EDM to mfg. the dies. The combination of PFP and RONDEE make the forgings for JE as well as numerous high end customs like Arias, Ross, Venolia (sp), and Howard. Only two comapnies actualy do in house foirging and that is TRW and KB. I can not say where CP has there forgings made for sure but I can find out if anyone is curious. They may even also be done by PFP, but I can guarantee that they do not make there own forgings. In this country there are very few forg shops left and even fewer die shops.


I would have to agree Wiseco's forgings are done in a very unconventional way that reduces quality but increases profitability. They are good but from a forging die sinkers point of view they are no where near the best.



Sorry for interjecting here, but I always feel the need to clarify these types of things being a 3rd generation forging die sinker.


You better check your sources. You are way off on some of this info.

For starters, since neither JE or CP make their own forgings or forge tooling, they do not have complete control over this part of their process. EDM is one of the highest quality methods of manufacturing forge tooling, which is why Wiseco uses this method to make all their own forge tooling in house. Wiseco also forges ALL their own pistons in house, using the MOST state of the art isothermal forging presses in the world. Isothermal means the material and forge tooling are all at the same (high) forging temperature, and the hydraulic presses have total closed loop process control over temperature, pressure, speeds, and tonage. Wiseco developed these controls in house and their process is unparelleled to other piston forgers. I'm not saying other forge shops don't use hydraulic presses and isothermal processes, but Wiseco's unique tooling designs and configurations are superior to any other piston companies we've been discussing. I was not even aware KB made his own forgings, and I thought TRW went out of business. I'm not 100% sure on those two topics, but I think you are incorrect in your claim.

What are you refering to about Wiseco's unconvential forging process and lesser quality? My info above proves you are bass-akwards, as Wiseco's forging process is of the HIGHEST quality and produces complex, deep pocket, thin web, precision piston forgings, of which the finished pistons are designed on. Wiseco has over 700 different shelf stock forgings, which BLOWS away any other piston company in the same market, and gives Wiseco the ability to optimize their finish piston designs for each application, instead of trying to fit them on a forging that is "close enough", and make up for it with extra milling.

It absolutely blows me away with the misconceptions and misinformation out there. I would rather people say nothing, or at least preface it with "I'm not sure" than to pass along incorrect information to people that are trying hard to learn the facts.

Just for the record, I'm not trying to say there aren't several high quality piston companies out there. I'm just trying to diffuse the incorrect information about Wiseco. I honestly cannot understand how the wrong information is spread so much.

  • grayracer513

Posted January 01, 2009 - 01:11 AM

#42

The fact that a manufacturer outsources things like blank forgings does not mean they don't have control over the product. Companies following the Japanese model of inventory management specify precisely what they want and tolerate no defects or variation from their specification; you make a mistake, don't ship it to me. Some of the largest, most quality oriented manufacturers in the world, including Toyota and Yamaha do business this way. If someone the size of Yamaha won't do foundry or forgings in house, how unusual is it that CP, JE, or Mahle don't?

The fact that a company has a big inventory is no indication that any of it is at any particular level of quality, either.

I stand by my position on this. Since you list your occupation as a product engineer, I think it might be revealing to know what product that happens to be.

  • CBDaddy

Posted January 01, 2009 - 06:37 AM

#43

I guess I need to update my info, as I am no longer a product engineer. As I mentioned before, I spent many years in the aluminum forging industry.

  • wobblyknobby

Posted January 01, 2009 - 06:57 AM

#44

blah blah blah blah blah

  • wobblyknobby

Posted January 01, 2009 - 07:21 AM

#45

So which 12.5:1 piston should I buy that will best survive overheating my wr426?

I am not interested in another 13.5 slug because pump gas around here is inconsistant and I am tired of riding in a lower gear to keep the detonation at bay. By the way, 12:1 makes more power than 13:1 on 93 octane by the time you dial in the jetting and ignition timing.

Im not going to run race gas anymore because I dont like spreading lead all over the forest.

  • CBDaddy

Posted January 01, 2009 - 06:55 PM

#46

So which 12.5:1 piston should I buy that will best survive overheating my wr426?

I am not interested in another 13.5 slug because pump gas around here is inconsistant and I am tired of riding in a lower gear to keep the detonation at bay. By the way, 12:1 makes more power than 13:1 on 93 octane by the time you dial in the jetting and ignition timing.

Im not going to run race gas anymore because I dont like spreading lead all over the forest.


My new MXA just arrived. Check out page 120 before you decide which piston to buy. http://www.zinio.com...9&o=int&prev=si

  • 642MX

Posted January 01, 2009 - 07:11 PM

#47

My new MXA just arrived. Check out page 120 before you decide which piston to buy. http://www.zinio.com...9&o=int&prev=si


Good article.

  • Yamy

Posted January 02, 2009 - 05:38 AM

#48

Yes, very nice, informative article :thinking:

  • grayracer513

Posted January 02, 2009 - 08:16 AM

#49

So which 12.5:1 piston should I buy that will best survive overheating my wr426?
... By the way, 12:1 makes more power than 13:1 on 93 octane by the time you dial in the jetting and ignition timing.

If your engine is otherwise nearly stock, and/or operating near the stock power levels of a YZ426, there's no real need to use anything other than an OEM piston to achieve 12.5:1 compression. They are less expensive, and at least as durable as the aftermarket options.

I doubt you can document any support for your statement regarding power output of 13:1 vs. 12:1, though. Most people in SoCal have no problem running 13/13.5:1 on our fabulous 91 octane pump gas, do nothing to their ignitions, and have no problem with it. The power gains over 12.5:1 are quite real.

Visit the ThumperTalk Store for the lowest prices on motorcycle / ATV parts and accessories - Guaranteed
  • Yamy

Posted January 02, 2009 - 10:18 AM

#50

If your engine is otherwise nearly stock, and/or operating near the stock power levels of a YZ426, there's no real need to use anything other than an OEM piston to achieve 12.5:1 compression. They are less expensive, and at least as durable as the aftermarket options.

I doubt you can document any support for your statement regarding power output of 13:1 vs. 12:1, though. Most people in SoCal have no problem running 13/13.5:1 on our fabulous 91 octane pump gas, do nothing to their ignitions, and have no problem with it. The power gains over 12.5:1 are quite real.


We have found that the Yamaha likes compression, and does not require a whole lot of changes when upping the CR - Yamaha did a nice job on the cylinder head and ignition that allow this. In our part of the world, maybe a main jet tweak, or move the clip one notch

  • MotoDave402

Posted January 02, 2009 - 11:07 AM

#51

Good article.



Love the graphics, very nice looking bike for sure

  • wobblyknobby

Posted January 02, 2009 - 02:14 PM

#52

I doubt you can document any support for your statement regarding power output of 13:1 vs. 12:1, though. Most people in SoCal have no problem running 13/13.5:1 on our fabulous 91 octane pump gas, do nothing to their ignitions, and have no problem with it. The power gains over 12.5:1 are quite real.


:thinking: Ya ok. a gain of 1.5 horsepower w/13.5:1 on race gas. When you jet it and dial in the ignition advance for maximum horsepower on race gas, you get a small gain in torque everywhere. Now pour some pump premium in there and it will ping under a load, so then you need to back off some advance and richen up the jetting to cool it off a little. With the 12.5:1, you dial up the nice crisp jetting and advance curves and it rips on pump premium. The fast burnng chamber design only takes you so far before you need race gas. (12.5:1)

Now when you take ur bike with factory settings (rich w/ conservative advance) and slap a 13.5:1 in there to replace a worn out 12.3:1, I am sure the gains are quite real.

and god save your motor when you get some crappy gas.

But u fellas think what you want. wobbly out. :smirk:

  • pbviking

Posted January 02, 2009 - 04:52 PM

#53

Those of us who live in the higher elevation will not need the high octane/race fuel

  • Justin89

Posted January 02, 2009 - 05:06 PM

#54

Those of us who live in the higher elevation will not need the high octane/race fuel


Exactly, to OP, if you want to make race fuel work, use it then! It can't hurt and will give you pieve of mind w/ the 13:5:1...try either a mix first or go straight race gas. IMO try using VP U4.2 or VP110 (cheaper $$$):thinking:

  • stlavsa

Posted January 02, 2009 - 07:51 PM

#55

Definately just run race gas to avoid det problems... Hell gas is so cheap nowadays its like they are giving it away!!

  • corndog67

Posted January 02, 2009 - 09:55 PM

#56

A couple of details. A top fuel engine is 500 cubic inches. Approximately 8000HP, going by computer models, since there isn't a dyno in the world that will measure them.

All pistons are CNC machined after the forging or casting process.

  • stlavsa

Posted January 02, 2009 - 11:11 PM

#57

A couple of details. A top fuel engine is 500 cubic inches. Approximately 8000HP, going by computer models, since there isn't a dyno in the world that will measure them.

All pistons are CNC machined after the forging or casting process.


its who has the better cnc machines

  • CBDaddy

Posted January 03, 2009 - 05:58 AM

#58

its who has the better cnc machines


So does that mean if I wanted to get into the piston business and make the best pistons in the world, all I have to do is buy a $500K cam turning lathe and start pumping them out like popcorn? Great, I know some investors. I bet I can make millions if I just buy the same finish turn lathe as JE, CP, and Wiseco.

Nevermind that a quality part has a few other factors built into it, such as forging design, piston design, quality systems, process control, component quality, and cam/barrel (shape), which by the way is only as good as the person PROGRAMMING the lathe. :thinking: My point is having the best machines in the world doesn't automatically mean you are gettting the best parts in the world off them. That is my only point.

  • grayracer513

Posted January 03, 2009 - 10:05 AM

#59

So does that mean if I wanted to get into the piston business and make the best pistons in the world, all I have to do is buy a $500K cam turning lathe and start pumping them out like popcorn?

The fact is, and you do know this, that the market for high performance pistons is the same as any other competitive market segment. The companies at the top are never alone there, and none of them have an edge on any of the others in the area of tooling technology because as with any other element of production, top-of-the-line tooling cuts costs in the long run and produces a better product more profitably. All piston manufacturers have the same equipment available to them. And not the least reason for which is the competitive nature of the machine tool business itself, the collective sales staffs of whom have made certain that every company they know of has seen their tool products, too.

Only in the intellectual and business areas can an edge be gained, and the intellectual side is temporary at best. Reverse engineering of machine engine components is as simple as hopping down to the local parts house and buying your competition's latest stuff. On the business side, one simply decides how little profit he will take, and how well he wants to make his product.

This thread has gone on long enough, given the circumstances.





Related Content

Forums
Photo

Is it worth it? (Cam and High compression piston) by macgi77


Dirt Bike   Make / Model Specific   Honda   CRF 150/230 F/L
  • Hot  36 replies
Forums
Photo

Snake pit oct 30th by The Anvil


Dirt Bike   Dirt Bike Regional Discussion   California
  • Hot  293 replies
Wiki
WR Camshaft Swap Info - last post by jamesm113

WR Camshaft Swap Info


Articles
  • 0 replies
Forums
Photo

Megabomb Fitment by 288yz450


Dirt Bike   Make / Model Specific   Yamaha   YZ 400/426/450
  • 1 reply
Forums
Photo

Michigan Motocross Tires by 288yz450


Dirt Bike   Dirt Bike Regional Discussion   North
  • 1 reply
 
x

Join Our Community!

Even if you don't want to post, registered members get access to tools that make finding & following the good stuff easier.

If you enjoyed reading about "" here in the ThumperTalk archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join ThumperTalk today!

The views and opinions expressed on this page are strictly those of the author, and have not been reviewed or approved by ThumperTalk.