Fuel injection on the 08 YZ450F?


100 replies to this topic
  • viktobravo

Posted May 10, 2007 - 09:12 AM

#41

I agree that EFI is coming and will happen. A good thing for MX after it all gets sorted out IMO. However on off-road models I would prefer the carb. The EFI doesnt like it when you fuel up your bike with mexican gas with a little dirt and water thrown in.:applause:

If I'm riding 300 ft from the truck, I'll take the EFI, when 300 miles from the truck, I'll take an FCR.:applause:

  • grayracer513

Posted May 10, 2007 - 09:51 AM

#42

Another legend. Carburetors are much less tolerant of dirty or wet fuel than EFI is. Carbs have no more than one atmosphere of pressure, at max, in any part of any fuel circuit, and water will easily block a jet. OTOH, with modern FI systems typically running fuel pressures in the range of 40-80 PSI, the pressure will drive water straight through, even if the higher levels of filtration typically used don't catch it before it gets that far.

Your truck is fuel injected. Have any trouble with it in Mexico?

  • loopsrider

Posted May 10, 2007 - 05:23 PM

#43

Well, after the personal attacks and rebuttals.....My decision was just made for me:applause: Stopped in for some boot buckles at the dealer and am now seriously considering a new bike


Might be putting through the paperwork for a new KTM 505 SX-F tomorrow.:applause:. Time to do some number crunching and see if I can make it happen.....

230.4 pounds WITH electric start. The thing is an open class MONSTER. AS advertised "the most powerful motocross machine on earth". And pretty to look at...........oooooooohhhhhhh bayyyyybeeeee.......


Wahoooooooo.........:applause: :p :p


Guess a fuel injected bike will have to wait a year or two. Maybe Yamaha will have watched everyone elses mistakes and come out with a killer system by then.

  • loopsrider

Posted May 10, 2007 - 05:31 PM

#44

I agree that EFI is coming and will happen. A good thing for MX after it all gets sorted out IMO. However on off-road models I would prefer the carb. The EFI doesnt like it when you fuel up your bike with mexican gas with a little dirt and water thrown in.:ride:

If I'm riding 300 ft from the truck, I'll take the EFI, when 300 miles from the truck, I'll take an FCR.:applause:



A pretty good point.

I'm guessing serious off road riders will be buying filters in bulk. Maybe the aftermarket may introduce water seperators??? I however agree with Grayracer that some pretty nasty stuff can be pushed through an injector that could plug a jet. I can also see filters not being changed often enough and taking out pumps. Just like the GM pickups. However this would be a maintenance issue and not a reliability issue. Not the same thing IMO.

  • CaptainKnobby

Posted May 10, 2007 - 06:08 PM

#45

I'm with you...bring it on! I love technology changes...

Yea! but wait until you have to buy one of the senors in EFI when it goes bad!! It will probally cost $100.00 for every sensor:eek: Because the average cost for a oxygen sensor on a car or truck is $100.00 and we all know motorcycle parts are more expenisive.

  • BergArabia

Posted May 10, 2007 - 06:17 PM

#46

Congrats loopsrider on your new bike choice.
I would look forward to EFI..
I think I can afford a fuel filter. :applause:

  • CaptainKnobby

Posted May 10, 2007 - 06:30 PM

#47

Congrats loopsrider on your new bike choice.
I would look forward to EFI..
I think I can afford a fuel filter. :applause:

Yea !but what about the other parts on EFI that will go bad?

  • loopsrider

Posted May 10, 2007 - 07:54 PM

#48

Just thought that I would mention that the fact that an EFI system with only a bad sensor will leave you stranded is kinda far fetched. If that were the case everytime an automobile had a check engine light illuminate it would be sitting for a tow truck....

Unless you have a major component failure such as a pump or injectors it is quite unlikely you will be stranded. On automotive EFI systems when merely a sensor goes bad or has erronious (sp?) readings the system will revert back to open loop and will go into a fail safe mode. This will include things such as base timing manipulation and set fuel delivery. It is also known as "Limp home mode". The PCM will take information from the remaining sensors and use that for it's fuel delivery etc... It will at least get you back to the truck or you won't have to DNF

I am guessing if they are smart they will manufacture this softwear into the bike EFI systems. I hope.....



Sorry for the previous excitement about the KTM but it sure is purty... Seems to have pretty good rider reviews also.

  • LoopyJones82

Posted May 10, 2007 - 08:08 PM

#49

I can not see throttle response being much better than my 06 with a ZipTy carb modded carb. Some of you that are just plain lazy to jet your carbs correctly or too cheap or lazy to enhance what you already have....are missing out on how much better a 1 or 2 year old bike can be than a brand new bike that will take you months to get right just for you. EFI is not the end all...ie...best thing since man started moving sticks and rocks to make fire.:applause:

Sorry that ain't holding any water for me...soon and very soon MX bikes will be close to 10,000 dollars and it is because of all this great new technology....again I think EFI is cool - it works good when it is completely set up correctly to be efficient, reliable and less costly. For 08 you are taking a big chance on 1 or more of these things to not be 100%....it will be a gamble period :p

I would rather see more works like suspension technology myself. Even more than stock SSS....nothing beats a suspension that is completely tunable and contains all the trick gadgets and coatings that we do not see in a stock bike:thumbsup:

Come on rebuttle time......this is getting good and beats oil and tick tock threads :p :p :p


why are you trying to tell people to discourage the idea of fuel injection??? production will never happen if there arent any consumers... plus, we WANT a few guinea pigs... just in case it turns out to b AMAZING or something..... i personally could care less and am perfectly happy with my 2006 YZ250F. if FI makes the YZs run much better, then ill get a fuel injected YZ250F a few years after it has been in the market just to save myself the money and to be sure that i have a reliable bike. thats the way i look at it... :applause:

  • Polar_Bus

Posted May 11, 2007 - 02:48 AM

#50

The battery is probably why they havent done EFI already.. but who knows they could come up with some sort of micro battery/capacitor to give the injectors that bit of energy to start the engine. There are other options.. and I'm sure they are working on them right now. Just wait once it's out for a couple years I'm sure it will be worth it.


If EFI finds it's way into MX bikes it will be what's called a "batteryless" EFI system (no battery needed). Artic Cat snowmobiles has been using this system for a few years now with great sucess.

Kawasaki and Suzuki already have EFI on their 450 race quads, as is the Raptor 700, so i'ts probable you will see it in the future on MX bikes.

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  • ncmountainman

Posted May 11, 2007 - 04:26 AM

#51

Might be putting through the paperwork for a new KTM 505 SX-F tomorrow.:applause:


i really like the looks of that bike too,just about like my 05 yz except lighter and estart,4 spd an all:thumbsup: you might ask how they called it a 505;the report i read said it was a 470sumthin? quite a stretch:thinking:
anyways...that would be a perfect bike for FI,i heard something about a FI estart 300 2 smoke from ktm?

  • Ga426owner

Posted May 11, 2007 - 05:40 AM

#52

The Honda system does not have a battery, nor does the system that Polaris has been using.

For those who keep raising the issue of price, please realize that the carb on an '06 YZ450 retails for $970.



yikes...but how much would you think a replacement complete EFI system will cost? 1500-2000? :applause:

  • loopsrider

Posted May 11, 2007 - 05:49 AM

#53

i really like the looks of that bike too,just about like my 05 yz except lighter and estart,4 spd an all:thumbsup: you might ask how they called it a 505;the report i read said it was a 470sumthin? quite a stretch:thinking:
anyways...that would be a perfect bike for FI,i heard something about a FI estart 300 2 smoke from ktm?


Yeah, I think it's around 477 cc's. It is a huge stretch to call it a 505. My guess is they wanted to market it as a huge open class bike and calling it a 477 might confuse it with the 450. I can see a lot of 450 stickers being bought and put on the 505s and raced with the 450s. Basically the exact same bike, just a few mm's more bore size.

A lot of the reviews say it pulls noticeably more than the 450. It lists for $500cdn more than the 450 however...

[COLOR="Red"]Anyway EFI rules and Carbs drool (literally):applause: [/COLOR]

  • viktobravo

Posted May 11, 2007 - 10:25 AM

#54

Another legend. Carburetors are much less tolerant of dirty or wet fuel than EFI is. Carbs have no more than one atmosphere of pressure, at max, in any part of any fuel circuit, and water will easily block a jet. OTOH, with modern FI systems typically running fuel pressures in the range of 40-80 PSI, the pressure will drive water straight through, even if the higher levels of filtration typically used don't catch it before it gets that far.

Your truck is fuel injected. Have any trouble with it in Mexico?



Yes. from water going through injectors. Had to replace 2 after my last trip.
I dont want to beat this debate to death but I will agree to disagree. Carbs themselves are very tolerant o dirt and water, just drain it out, plug it back in and everything runs fine, try doing that with the orfices in an injector. Also, ever trash a battery on an off-road trip? I have, 2 of them and the bike continued to run just fine, not so with EFI, ask the guys that ride GS 650's in harsh conditions.

EFI on a dirt bike for harsh off-roading many miles from civilization has a very long way to come before it will be as reliable, durable and easily trail fixed as a carb. I'm sure it will happen, but IMO we are not there yet. The manuacturers will eventually come up with good system that does not depend on a sealed lead acid battery and can be bump or kick started and will tolerate plenty of water and dirt.

  • 642MX

Posted May 11, 2007 - 10:41 AM

#55

EFI for harsh off-roading many miles from civilization has a very long way to come


Yeah. I'm sure the guys with the Suzuki 450 quads are scared to get more than 5 or 6 miles from the truck. :applause:

You guys that are against EFI crack me up. :applause:

  • viktobravo

Posted May 11, 2007 - 10:46 AM

#56

Yeah. I'm sure the guys with the Suzuki 450 quads are scared to get more than 5 or 6 miles from the truck. :applause:

You guys that are against EFI crack me up. :p


Hey I'm not against it at all, I actually would love to have EFI. I just dont think its anywhere near ready off-roading in the MOFN where you must be self sufficient. The manuacturers will figure out a way to make it work well, but we arent there yet.

Thats fine by me, I'll be happy to let everyone else be the guinea pigs the first couple of years that the EFI comes out.:applause:

  • grayracer513

Posted May 11, 2007 - 11:35 AM

#57

yikes...but how much would you think a replacement complete EFI system will cost? 1500-2000? :applause:

Why would you ever need to replace the complete system?

  • KJ790

Posted May 11, 2007 - 04:12 PM

#58

Why would you ever need to replace an entire carb?

  • grayracer513

Posted May 11, 2007 - 04:40 PM

#59

Why would you ever need to replace an entire carb?

Wear in the slide bore, wear at the throttle shaft bore, damage from sloppy extractions of stuck hot start plungers, stripped screws, occasionally crash damage, corrosive water damage. Then there's all the stupid little fittings and stuff that are not serviced. There are a number of reasons.

The point of mentioning the cost of the carb was to address the question of the expense of a factory installed EFI vs. the carb. The issue of replacing an entire FI system was either tongue-in-cheek or a weak attempt to submit that there would be any replacement event equivalent to a complete carb replacement necessary on an FI engine. In actual shop experience with both EFI and carburetors, complete carbs do actually get replaced, and the Japanese ones are ridiculously expensive. OTOH, it is extremely rare that more than two components of an EFI system ever need replacing for the same problem.

Most EFI failures, rare as they are, are in electrical components, and failures of any Yamaha electronics is even more unusual than the average.

  • KJ790

Posted May 11, 2007 - 04:48 PM

#60

Most of those reasons would be reasons to replace an EFI system as well. The occasional crash damage is not a carb problem, EFI would get damaged in that case too. I'm sure people can strip out screws or damage the housing while trying to change an injector (I have seen people strip out everything imaginable). I've never heard of anyone buying a new carb. I doubt anyone would need to buy an EFI system as well (I'm sure someone in the world will, but not any more than the number that have bought entire carbs), so the prices of them is not relevent other than in figuring out the price of a new bike.





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