Header or not to Header


19 replies to this topic
  • CDRETZKA

Posted April 27, 2007 - 07:15 PM

#1

Do headers and a pipe make more of a difference than just a more free flowing pipe all by it self? Meaning are the stock headers more restricitve than aftermarket?

  • goblin127

Posted April 27, 2007 - 08:10 PM

#2

Yes a aftermarket header would be more free flowing than stock. If you took and corked up a header with say a stock muffler it would not flow any more than complete stock. I think thats right,but its late. Hope that was some help.

  • Billahjack

Posted April 27, 2007 - 10:15 PM

#3

I have been testing some combos and here is what I think:

FMF Powerbomb Header/Powercore 4 pipe, Stock Cam (side panel cut out made the motor hesitate more, prefer to run without cut-out, nearly same top end with/without cut-out) - A little softer on the bottom than stock header, good mid range, slightly better top end; weird exhaust note - kind of buzzy versus thumpy, kind of loud but the quietest of all 3 pipes in this post. The stock side-panel makes the bike a little quieter also.

Stock header, Hotcams Stage 1, Yoshimura Slip-on, Side panel cut-out - BEST bottom end chugging power, good mid range, slightly better top end to FMF/stock cam above - definitely thumpiest note

Moriwaki Full Exhaust/Spark Arrestor installed, Hotcams Stage 1, Side panel cut-out - Softer bottom than set-up above, strong mid-range, better top-end; Mellower thump than Yoshimura pipe, similar sound levels

Moriwaki Full Exhaust/Spark Arrestor installed, HRC cam, side panel cut-out - Soft bottom end, but similar to Stage 1 cam, Strongest mid, good top end


If you are doing casual riding and some lazy hill climbs, the Hotcams Stage 1 with the Yosh pipe and side panel cut-out is my favorite so far. You can almost idle the bike and roll on tractor-like torque. Also you can spin up the back tire pretty easy at any RPM to power slide around.

Going on a ride with the Moriwaki/HRC Cam/Side Panel Cut-out on Saturday, I might like this one more.

It would be nice to try the XRsOnly full exhaust and the Procircuit T-4 Exhaust also. They are just a bit more pricey than the others since I bought most of my stuff used.

  • HawkGT

Posted April 27, 2007 - 11:06 PM

#4

Nice testing Billahjack. I wish you owned a dyno! [wink]

I'm running a Moriwaki w/ sparky installed. All things considered (sound, price, build quality, looks, seat-of-the-pants performance) I'm happy. I do think the bottom end softened though. My only engine mods are the exhaust. I've long been considering a HC1 and cut sidepanel but just haven't made a move on that front yet.

  • plinker

Posted April 28, 2007 - 03:26 AM

#5

Great info, Billhajack. :applause:

I've got a bone stock '00 that I'm planning on modding real soon here, and I've been debating on which way to go for best low end torque.

I've heard that aftermarket headers flow more volume and therefore you get more power at mid range and top end, but at the expense of low end.

I'm planning on running the stock header, an FMF Q2 muffler, a hot cams stage 1 and I'm also going to uncork my bike.

Now I'll just have to figure out the jetting for those mods.

  • Billahjack

Posted April 28, 2007 - 08:25 PM

#6

___Moriwaki/HRC Cam/Side Panel cut-out ride report___

The Moriwaki is a much better exhaust note than both the FMF powercore 4 and the Yoshimura pipes. The Yosh has a little bit of bite to the thumping.

I stalled the bike in 2nd bogging on a rough hill climb and broke my brand new brake lever. I still have stock gearing (14/48). It was a nasty hill with a few loose rocks the size of shoes on top of hardpack dirt and larger boulder faces peeking through the dirt. That makes 2 levers in 2 rides. At least you know that I try hard.

I feel like the Hotcams Stage1/Stock Header/Yosh Pipe/Cut-out panel are the best for chugging up hills. You get power down lower but you don't get as strong of a mid and top end. The diameter reduction in the stock header is great for low-end torque by keeping the exhuast velocity high at low RPM. This causes the cylinder breathing to have excellent scavenging of exhaust gasses for max low-end power. This is what you want on trails and hill climbs.

The HRC/Moriwaki/Side panel cut-out feels great on the street. It was also blazing quick when you get room to run the bike through the revs on the dirt. Its a really good setup for supermoto since you run through the revs more. It seems like the bike has good power down low but then starts spinning the tire pretty hard when you hit 5000 RPM. Its not like a 2-stoke hit, it just a smooth build on power to where it easily overcomes the available traction on the dirt at about 5000 rpm.


____________

My buddy has the FMF Q2 muffler slip-on with the stock side panel and it generates great low-end torque with the stock cam. It is really close to my Yosh/Stage 1/cut-out setup below 4000 RPM. Above 4000, mine starts walking away. Go with the Q2 or Yosh slip-on first before you get the cam to see how you like it.

One side note on the Q2 - It is fairly quiet at low RPM and low throttle but it has a bite to the exhaust note at open throttle and high RPM. It sounds like a lawnmower idling and a brappy crack to each pulse with throttle.

_____________

Jetting - go with the 68s pilot unless you get a header with the side-panel cut-out. Then go with a 70s. You have to tune the main jet for your elevation/mods/temperature. Stock needle - raised 1 position from center, B53E needle at middle position.

Main Jet at 85 degrees F, 3000 FT -

Moriwaki/Side Panel Cut-out/HRC Cam - 182
FMF Powercore4/Powerbomb/no side panel/stock Cam - 175
Stage 1 Cam/Stock Header/Cut-out - 182


See the www.XR650R.us FAQ page for fuel screw tuning.

  • Thumpmeister

Posted April 28, 2007 - 09:44 PM

#7

I have a stg1 hotcam... And it seems like to really be able to use the cam, I'd need to cut the box cover, and do the header...

I've been thinking about this for some time...

But, why not go with the regular 68 with the free-flowing header and side-panel cut out? I'm a bit above sea-level, so I was thinking 68 w/ the 182 main, along with the header and side-cover cut...

Is the reqular 68 not a good idea, and should I go bigger than a 182 at about 500-1500 feet above sea level?

  • steed2

Posted April 29, 2007 - 04:55 AM

#8

this is where im confused...why buy the stage 1 ....im running the stage 2 and honestly didnt notice any bottom end loss but the motor up top is amazing and soooo smooth even at the rev limiter. im also running a powercore 4 . I was going to get the stage 1 and thought why not stage 2 ....i talked to Bruce and he convinced me that the stage 2 has no bottom end loss compared to the stage 1 just it makes more power .....get the stage 2,, the results are very impressive and ya get the header too.

  • Billahjack

Posted April 29, 2007 - 09:31 AM

#9

I haven't tried the stage 2 cam yet. Maybe if I see a cheap one, I'll try it. Also, I don't have a dyno so I have to go by seat of the pants feel and gage traction. One thing to note is that dynos typically report wide open throttle pulls instead of throttle modulation for situations such as trail riding, fire roads, hill climbs, whoops, washes, etc.

With the Yosh/Cut-out/Stock Header/Stage 1, I could spin up the back tire almost anywhere in the rev range to throttle steer. That has saved my butt a few times because the 650R will not turn that quick unless you are sliding a little bit. BT4Stroke on here also recommended the Stage 1 cam for trail riding.

With the Moriwaki Exh/HRC Cam/Cut-out, power builds all the way to the rev limiter unlike the stock header where you fell the power get soft on top. I think I might try a 13T front sprocket with this set-up for the trails.

Bruce has a 680 kit in his bike and I'm not sure on his compression and other mods such as valves and carb. I do know that he is making big power everywhere.

I'm not at a high skill level at this time so that kind of power would make it harder for me to ride. I have only been riding dirt for a year and a half.

Important - If you plan on going super fast on dirt, you NEED good suspension or you can get out of control fast.

  • Thumpmeister

Posted April 29, 2007 - 11:40 AM

#10

The only reason I'd be worried about getting the stg 2 is because of valve train wear. The engineers at Honda designed the valve train around the stock cam, and designed it for minimal wear with it. When you go with an aftermarket cam that has different rise and duration, you might be exceeding the limits that the stock honda engineers had intended for. I know that this is true with even the stg 1, but it seems the stg 1 would have less wear than the stg 2, esp since the stg. two is supposed to be 'more aggressive' than the HRC cam.

However, if you go through the effort of Ti valves and springs, you might not have to worry about this. Just a thought...

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  • Billahjack

Posted April 29, 2007 - 04:59 PM

#11

I forgot to post about the "S" pilot jets versus the non "S". The mechanic at XRsOnly told me that the "S" jets are about half a size larger than a conventional jet as far as fuel mixture goes. He said that a 68s is between a 68 and a 70. I noticed that the 68s gives a little better off-idle response when you cut the throttle and twist it back on again versus the 68.

I'm not sure about HRC versus Stage 1 and 2 cams regarding wear but it looked like the HRC cam lobes had an asymmetrical design using a steeper ramp to open the valve versus closing the valve. This probably helps at higher RPM with keeping the rocker on the lobe thus reducing valve float (valves not closing when they are supposed to). I would think that you would be the most concerned about your rocker arms failing and valves floating with high lift cams.

From running the stage 1 cam, I did see shiny wear marks on the rocker arm surfaces where they engage the cam. They were really narrow at about .050" wide. There was no depression, just a shiny mark. I probably ran that cam for 300 miles before swapping to the HRC.


Thumpmeister, Which pipe are you using at the moment? If stock, what tip configuration?

  • Thumpmeister

Posted April 29, 2007 - 08:11 PM

#12

Umm, I think the tech at xr's only might have his info a little off, because the regular 68 has a lot bigger holes than the the 68s.

http://www.xr650r.us/jetting/ (about 3/4 way down the page)

As for the cam consideration, thats kinda what I was thinking too about the rocker arm wear. I haven't taken my valve cover off since I put the stg 1 in, so I dunno if I have any wear or not. Thats also what I was thinking when I said the stg 1 and stg 2 cams cause pre-mature wear, cause they weren't engineered to the same degree as the HRC cam. So, after using the HRC cam, have you noticed any more wear, or would it be equivalent to the stocker?

As for the pipe, I'm running a white bros R4; I got it in 2004 just after they stopped making them for the 650's. Also, will any aftermarket header work with the pipe I have, cause I really like the R4.

So, heres what I was thinking... If I can get ahold of that header, I'll also swiss chees the air box cover, and run a 182 main, with the standard 68 pilot. The only thing is, is I was reading Borynack's and Haymakers jetting guide, and I can't decide weather to run a standard 68, or a 70s...

  • Billahjack

Posted April 30, 2007 - 05:44 AM

#13

Good pick on the White Brothers R4! I would probably get the 68s and 70s if you can. If you have a dual sport kit, then that cuts off some of the air flow under the seat. This is where the side-panel cut-out helps more than just a stock bike. Both my bikes have electronics packed under the seat where air is normally flowing.

I know you can put any pipe on an FMF header that fits a stock header. The moriwaki is a no-go for other pipes.

The XR650R.US page goes from 65 to 68s to 70. You can get pilot jets in 65s, 68s, 70s, and so-on.

The holes you are referring to are emulsification holes, not fuel flow holes. The fuel flow is the center bottom hole. The emulsification holes atomize the fuel that gets past the bottom hole. I'm not sure what specifically is going on in the emulsification holes (vacuum, air flow, etc).

I'm pretty sure the mechanic at XRsOnly knew what he was talking about as he was there a long time. I asked him a bunch of questions about exhaust and carbs. I did speak to him in person also. He didn't like the "quiet pipes" such as the FMF Q2 stating that they had less performance than an uncorked stock pipe. Actually he didn't like any of the FMF pipes. He showed me the expansion chambers on the XRsOnly pipe that is just before the muffler and explained that they needed to be there for big power. The Pro-Circuit pipe has a similar one but not as large. He also said that the stock carb flowed more air on the top end than the mikuni TM-40 carbs they had. The only reason to switch to a TM-40 was for better transient response with the accelerator pump (trail riding vs. Open desert racing). Some of the bikes get a 1-1.5MM overbore on the stock carbs for full race engines. I tried on my e-bayed carb and poked through the top before the slide. Oops.


My HRC cam was only in for 1 ride. Its not time to tear down the valve cover and take a peek yet. Somewhere I did see a blurb stating that some of the desert racers were running the HRC cam with the stock piston for better over-rev than going to the high compression piston. I think there is more space between the valves and the piston with the stock piston.

  • Thumpmeister

Posted April 30, 2007 - 08:03 PM

#14

I remember reading the same thing about running the stock piston over the high compression one. It was saying the same thing, that the HRC cam with the stock piston gives great top end, but the high compression one was really good for torque and trails, but not on top.

Ahh, I see what you meant about the hole size, cause your right, I was referring to the emulsification holes. I'm not totally sure what they do either; my guess is that they would allow for better mixing of the gas with the air because it allows more out the side rather than the top. You are right about the fuel hole through the middle, though. And yes, I'm sure the tech at XRs only did know what he was talking about, it was just a mix up on my part.

My piggy isn't dual sported, so I have room for air flow. And I picked the R4 for a reason, and that was because when Dirtbike did the testing of the piggy when it first came out, they found the R4 to be the best all-around pipe, and it held up better and wasn't as obnoxiously loud as the pro-circuit pipe.

So, it sounds like the expansion chambers are the way to go? I've never noticed any expansion chambers on any of the other pipes except for the powerbomb, and I dunno if they powerbomb would really give you that much more over a 'normal' high-flow header.

Well, like I said, I think I'm gonna go with a header and swiss-cheese a bit of the filter cover. I'm just wondering if the standard 68 or 70, instead of the 68s or 70s, will make any difference or not.

Do you know anything else about the different pilots besides the whole emulsification thing?

  • Thumpage

Posted May 01, 2007 - 02:21 AM

#15

Ahh, I see what you meant about the hole size, cause your right, I was referring to the emulsification holes. I'm not totally sure what they do either; my guess is that they would allow for better mixing of the gas with the air because it allows more out the side rather than the top. You are right about the fuel hole through the middle, though. And yes, I'm sure the tech at XRs only did know what he was talking about, it was just a mix up on my part.

My piggy isn't dual sported, so I have room for air flow. And I picked the R4 for a reason, and that was because when Dirtbike did the testing of the piggy when it first came out, they found the R4 to be the best all-around pipe, and it held up better and wasn't as obnoxiously loud as the pro-circuit pipe.

So, it sounds like the expansion chambers are the way to go? I've never noticed any expansion chambers on any of the other pipes except for the powerbomb, and I dunno if they powerbomb would really give you that much more over a 'normal' high-flow header.

Well, like I said, I think I'm gonna go with a header and swiss-cheese a bit of the filter cover. I'm just wondering if the standard 68 or 70, instead of the 68s or 70s, will make any difference or not.

Do you know anything else about the different pilots besides the whole emulsification thing?


The expansion chambers that the XRs Only tech was refering to, was the coned shape pipe right before the muffler body, (the mufflers pipe), not the header. They are also referred to as 'reverse cone megaphone' pipes. The design is a conical diffuser which creates a suction wave that helps scavenge more exhaust over a broader RPM range.
Pro Circuit makes a version but it has only been available to pro riders or guys that have some sort of connection. White Bros. made one which was the E-series Pro Meg which they don't make anymore. I have one of these. The Promeg also used a disk system which is a radial diffuser which creates suction or vacuum within the pipe also.
Back on track,.. There was also a Aussie Staintune system that used a megaphone muffler pipe for the pro riders racing the Safari races but they did not sell that version on the market. Like Pro circuit, only the straight walled piped muffler pipe was sold to the general market. The Megaphone versions were noted to produce more power.
I believe FMF had made their Powercore muffler with a megaphone style pipe but it used a square core in the muffler. I don't know if they still make them that way or not. I have never read anything real good on FMFs XR650R mufflers, although that is not to say they are not pretty good though. Maybe just not one of the better choices for the XR650R.
XRs Only seems to be the only current, somewhat mainstream producer of a reverse megaphone system for the Xr650R. Their original mufflers also used a disk system along with the reverse megaphone but they have since changed their mufflers and now use a standard exit tip.

Additional Pilot jet info.? Go here to post #20: http://www.thumperta...t=433642&page=2
I wrote a little bit about the pilot jets, the emulsion holes and the relation with the carbs AJCV, (air jet cutoff valve).

  • Thumpmeister

Posted May 01, 2007 - 07:16 PM

#16

Well, that DOES help in clearing up the pilot question. Bigger holes = leaner mixture ( I think?)...

So, it sounds like I should probably go w/ the 70s instead of the standard 68, since the standard 68 is a little leaner. Well, I dunno. I'm all confused now... I'm thinking I might go with the standard 68 if I get the header and hole-up the airbox, because with more air coming in and going out, having a higher emulsification would be better???

Should I even change the pilot if I get a header and open the airbox, or just go with a bigger main?

  • Thumpage

Posted May 01, 2007 - 09:36 PM

#17

Well, that DOES help in clearing up the pilot question. Bigger holes = leaner mixture ( I think?)...

So, it sounds like I should probably go w/ the 70s instead of the standard 68, since the standard 68 is a little leaner. Well, I dunno. I'm all confused now... I'm thinking I might go with the standard 68 if I get the header and hole-up the airbox, because with more air coming in and going out, having a higher emulsification would be better???

Should I even change the pilot if I get a header and open the airbox, or just go with a bigger main?


Heh, heh, sorry if it was a little confusing. To put it short and sweet, the Pilot jets basicly run like this, in order from lean to rich. 68, 68s, 70, 70s.
The last part of what you said is a bit confused. If you are effectively getting more air flow through the motor, you may need to have a richer pilot jet. It is best to use or start with at least a 68s.
Making sure you go through the fuel screw tuning procedure. It will tell you whether or not the pilot jet size is correct for your setup. This is very important. Especially after adding new exhaust mods or making general changes to jetting. The fuel screw should always be tuned so that the bike will always be at it's optimum & proper idle range.

  • Billahjack

Posted May 02, 2007 - 01:14 PM

#18

Good info Thumpage. Some of the newer pipes have a small cone expansion but nothing like the XR'sOnly pipe. My Yoshimura, FMF, Moriwaki and stock systems all have this cone expansion before the muffler.

The Powerbomb header uses the Powerbomb section to alter the pressure waves (exhaust pulses) travelling through the header. The tuning of these pulses is called "Resonant Ram" tuning. This applies to both the intake and exuast sides of an engine. Essentially, the powerbomb makes a harmonic at another RPM range than a straight pipe that slightly boosts power. Think of it as a trumpet where you can play different note with the same key-fingering. Where you can't play notes is where the instrument does not resonate.

Another note about the "s" jets - some people say that the idle to throttle opening response is better with the "s" jets because the fuel atomizes better. Its about half way between getting a tuned pumper carb and having a poorly tuned stock carb.

I would buy both 68s and 70s jets if you can afford them. That way you can tune your carb and not wonder how the other jet would have done. If you have to get one, I would get a 70s for near sea-level elevation and a 68s if you are higher than 3000 feet.

  • Thumpage

Posted May 03, 2007 - 01:20 AM

#19

Nice explanation about the powerbomb module. That was a different way of saying it than I have heard before.
I myself selected the Hi-Flo header for two reasons over the Powerbomb. 1st, because the Hi-Flo has much better clearance from the edelbrock carbs pump screw and carb in general. The powerbomb module is a bit too close of a fitment to an Edelbrock carb for my taste. The bomb module is known to butt up against the Edelbrocks pump screw or be super close where it would be hard to access the screw. Guys have put a little dent in the powerbomb module for it to clear or give clearance from the Edelbrocks pump screw. I know a few guys that have done this and everything is basicly fine. I like the idea of the added distance the Hi-Flo header has from the carb myself. To each his own of course.
2nd, another thing I had noticed, (about a year and a half, almost 2 yrs. ago) about the Powerbomb headers, was that the front wrap around pipe was slightly flattened during manufacturing, where it passes in front of the frame. This was possibly done to help add clearance from the bikes frame downtube. The Hi-Flos, from what I was seeing, never had that done to them from manufacturing. They kept the full round diameter. Maybe only the Hi-Flos had updated fitment specs at that time.
NOTE: I have seen a couple newer Powerbomb headers that now have the fully round wrap around pipe, so that is good.
As for expansion cones or rather, Reverse Cone Megaphones, I have to say the stock muffler does not have one, (detail pics below). I am not sure the Moriwaki does either but I could be wrong on that one. From pictures I have seen, I haven't seen that the Moriwaki pipe expands into a cone before it is hidden by the sidecover. I know the piping itself is larger though, maybe like the old Big Gun's muffler pipe was, (and it's old bigger header pipe diameter). The original Big Gun muffler pipe was a straight walled 2" dia. pipe. I don't know about the new systems though.
My White Bros E-series Promegs muffler pipe expands to a 2 1/4" diameter, then reverse tapers, (Note; 'Reverse Cone Megaphone') back down right before the muffler. Not nearly as drastic as the XRs Only muffler. I don't know if the size of the reverse cone megaphone means more power or rather a broader power curve, ??. You have to consider that the Promeg had the Disc diffuser as well, which creates an additional vacuum or suction wave.

The above gets to what the Reverse Cone Megaphone pipe really is. You will see in the pic below of the XR's Only pipe, that it expands out into a cone up to the muffler but then quickly reverse tapers back down to the 2" core diameter in the muffler body. On the Promeg, you can't see the reverse cone tapering back down from the outside but it actually does from the inside. If I remember correctly, the FMF coned pipe doesn't show the tapered reverse cone from the outside either.
I have included a pic of a commercial Pro Circuit muffler to show that the commercial version has a straight walled pipe leading to the muffler. The pic is from another post on a current thread.
Here are some pics for reference.

Stock muffler pics.. The pipe is the same dia,eter as you will see from the exterior and interior. The fatter section you might notice on the pipe within the muffler body looks to be like some sort of pre-muffler. The pipe is kind of like a core with holes in it, (unfortunately you can't see the holes in the pipe, in the picture. The light drowned them out.) and I guess some sound gets absorbed within this thin premuffler before it exits into the muffler body itself.
Posted Image
Posted Image

XR's Only - Reverse Cone Megaphone muffler.
Posted Image

White Bros. E-series Pro Meg - Reverse Cone Megaphone muffler.
Posted Image

Pro Circuit T4 commercial version - Straight wall diameter piped muffler.
Posted Image

Here is what appears to be an older version of the FMF Powerbomb header with the flattend section of the wraparound header pipe. (All newer Powerbomb headers should have the updated full diameter round pipe.)
Posted Image

This is the FMF Hi-Flo front wrap around pipe with full diameter pipe intact.
Posted Image

Powerbombs relation to the Edelbrock's pump screw.
Posted Image

FMF Hi-Flo header clearance from Edelbrock carb.
Posted Image

  • Billahjack

Posted May 03, 2007 - 09:02 AM

#20

Good pictures. I guess I was wrong about others having the reverse cone.

Here is what I was tought about resonant ram tuning in college.

1. Cams have overlap that leaves the intake and exhuast valves open at the same time for a short short duration.
2. Air has mass and therefore has inertia.

When air is passing through an intake tract, the inertia of it keeps pushing into the cylinder. The air is also pushed in pulses due to the valves opening and closing. This intake charge fills the cylinder and flows a little bit out of the exhaust valves into the head pipe following the scavenged exhaust gas. Just before the exhaust valve closes, the exhaust pulse from a tuned exhaust system travels back up the pipe and forces part of the intake air back into the cylinder and then the exhuast valve shuts. There is acually an equation for calculatng this but I forgot it a long time ago. Meanwhile, the intake tract is still feeding air into the cylinder and the air pulse in the intake tract pushes the last bit of air in right before the intake valve closes. Also note, as the air speed increases in the intake tract the ram effect intensifies.

Essentially, resonant ram tuning provides a supercharging effect which increases volumetric efficiency of an engine during certain RPM ranges. Volumetric efficiency is a measure of how much air an engine gets into the cylinder for 1 intake/exhaust cycle. If a 650cc motor ingests 650cc of air, then it is 100% volumetric efficient. Stock cars are tuned to hit about 120% volumetric efficiency in their power ranges.

When you have multiple cylinders, the intake and exhaust tracts can be coupled together to form harmonics of the pulses at multiple RPM ranges for better power. This is why V-8's have dual plane intake manifolds for idle-mid RPM range and then racers switch single plane manifolds for high-rpm power. Also, headers are coupled to cylinders to optimize the exhaust pulses.

I'm guessing that the unequal length header tubes on a XR650R gives another harmonic for broader power band but slightly sacrifices peak power because only 1 exhaust tube is optimized at a time.





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