offset races


11 replies to this topic
  • The Italian Stallion

Posted March 14, 2007 - 05:19 PM

#1

With all this talk about the 06 07 yz450 front end push and with rake being the issue here not trail {although the 22mm offsets feel a little better IMO] does anyone make offset races for these bikes ? No there isn 't Why are the aftwrmarket companies snoozing here? This is a very popular machine that would be the best bike ever made if it turned a little better {and a little more bottom wouldn t hurt] I am a carpenter [Framer] I know F all about machining but i think offset bearings and races would not be that big a task to make.

  • Huckster

Posted March 14, 2007 - 05:48 PM

#2

I dont know about offset races, but I have been asking around and I found out that most guys who rode Yam's during the outdoor nationals used 22.5mm last year as did the Canadian Yamaha team.

  • grayracer513

Posted March 14, 2007 - 07:27 PM

#3

The group of pros who ran through a blind test with Applied chose 24mm as their favorite. Dubach also settled on that same offset.

Offsetting the races presents several interesting problems. First, you have to find a different set of bearings to use that will be enough oversized to allow them to be offset ground down to the right size for the steering head, and still have enough meat at the thinnest point of the outer race. The offset grinding has to be done on the outers because the upper inner bearing is a slip fit, and there's nothing to keep it indexed correctly.

That brings up problem #2; the offset bearing races have to be oriented in the frame head in exactly the right place, or the offset will begin to show up as out of vertical alignment, left to right.

You might dodge some of this if you could find a suitable bearing with an undersized bore at the inner, and do the whole offset bore thing on just that one, but you still have the index/alignment process just as carefully in pressing that one on the stem.

Then, there's the issue of the 1-2 degree shift in stem angle, and its effect on the internal squareness of the bearing. Do you grind that into your work, or let it go?

  • Huckster

Posted March 15, 2007 - 01:25 AM

#4

The group of pros who ran through a blind test with Applied chose 24mm as their favorite. Dubach also settled on that same offset.


Yea I remember you saying that, but as I said, Reed, DV12 and the Morgan Racing Yamaha(Yam factory team) all ran 22.5's. They obvioulsy tested as well and choose that offset for a reason.

  • yamahacrazy_310

Posted March 15, 2007 - 07:44 AM

#5

Is the Applied worth the $400?

  • grayracer513

Posted March 15, 2007 - 09:24 AM

#6

How much difference do you think 1mm is really going to make?

The beauty of blind testing is that when you decide which of the X number of stuff being tested is your favorite, you have no idea which one you're picking, so any bias towards a preconceived preference is reduced or eliminated. In the Applied tests, the selection of the 24mm as the favorite was the consensus, but it wasn't unanimous. Some chose smaller offsets (more different from stock), and some actually preferred the stock offset to anything else. A couple actually liked larger than stock offsets better. As I recall, there were about 12-15 riders involved, all pros. Dubach did his own testing.

The point is that while different people are certain to like different things, the '06/'07 YZ450 does not really suffer from a significant trail problem of any kind. The "improvement", which may very well not seem like one to someone else, that you would get out of spending $400 on changing that is not going to be as pronounced as with, say, an '03 CRF that really did have an issue with trail. I really don't think that running 24's or 22.5's is going to turn the YZ450 into an RMZ, but if it works for you, then that's fine. To me, Doug Dubach's word carries more water than that of any random ten other pros because of his long experience as a test rider and developer whose work is concentrated around Yamahas, and he tells me that 24mm is what works best overall. Conveniently for me, that aligns with my perception that the the bike is very close to "right" the way it currently is.

A lot of it depends on your personal tastes, and on what you're used to. People that have ridden mostly older YZF's find the '06/7 to be much quicker and lighter steering than previous models. A lot of people who come from later or modified CRF's, most of whom were quite happy with their Hondas, can't believe how much better the YZ450 handles than their old bike. But riders coming from really quick two strokes, especially the RM's , and RMZ guys like Huckster see the bike as more work than they're used to.

But, the way it is, the new 450 has an overall light feel, a light, responsive touch at the handlebars, and IMO, is an exceptionally neutral handling bike. It has no strong tendency to climb out of ruts in corners in either direction, and no tendency to suddenly loose traction at either end, unlike the CRF, which will disconnect the front end without warning. It does have a minor tendency to understeer (push) turning in, but not from mid-turn out, and the push is controllable, anyway. And that is really more a rake angle issue, in any case.

If you want to experiment, the Rekluse E-Axle might be the way to go before you dump $400+ into something you may not like. If you can, ride something before you spring for the big bucks, unless, of course you can afford such experiments.

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  • Huckster

Posted March 15, 2007 - 09:50 AM

#7

Grey I understand you points and I appreciate your feedback. You seem to be very knowledgable when it comes to Yamahas and I respect your opinion. I realize that the YZF will never turn like a RMZ, but I do believe from talking to many people that it can be made to turn better than what is delivered stock. I tried your sag tip and it worked. I went from 110 to 102 and it worked so much better. My next step will be trying 98mm. I do know though that DV12 and Chad ran 22.5mm as did the Morgan racing guys up in Canada. From what I was told it made a huge difference. I would think that they could run any offset they wanted to and I am pretty sure they tested as much as they could to figure out which works best.

Believe me, I do not want to spend another $500 on this bike. I wish I could have just rolled it out of the showroom, put my Flexxbars on and raced it like I did with the Suzuki. Maybe I need more time on it to get comfortable, but right now I just do not have the same confidence cornering as I did with the RMZ and for me that is a big deal. Hopefully the 22.5mm will make the gap between the two much smaller. Other than that I love the bike. The zipty mod is well worth it, my FC suspension is the best I have ever been on, and the bike feels 20lbs lighter than the suzuki. I really do like it and if I could get it to turn just a bit better, it would be perfect.

  • The Italian Stallion

Posted March 15, 2007 - 02:09 PM

#8

The group of pros who ran through a blind test with Applied chose 24mm as their favorite. Dubach also settled on that same offset.

Offsetting the races presents several interesting problems. First, you have to find a different set of bearings to use that will be enough oversized to allow them to be offset ground down to the right size for the steering head, and still have enough meat at the thinnest point of the outer race. The offset grinding has to be done on the outers because the upper inner bearing is a slip fit, and there's nothing to keep it indexed correctly.

That brings up problem #2; the offset bearing races have to be oriented in the frame head in exactly the right place, or the offset will begin to show up as out of vertical alignment, left to right.

You might dodge some of this if you could find a suitable bearing with an undersized bore at the inner, and do the whole offset bore thing on just that one, but you still have the index/alignment process just as carefully in pressing that one on the stem.

Then, there's the issue of the 1-2 degree shift in stem angle, and its effect on the internal squareness of the bearing. Do you grind that into your work, or let it go?


Bare with me gray I knocked back a few. But how about doing it with the triiple clamps? Say I put a 22mm bottom and go stock with the top or even further? There would be an issue on the fork angle in relation to the clamps you could grind that into your work easier then messiing arouind in the stearing stem could'nt you? or could you let that go?

  • grayracer513

Posted March 15, 2007 - 03:23 PM

#9

That is something that used to be done years ago, but think about what really takes place when you do that. You change the angle of the fork tubes without changing the angle of the steering axis. That means that the steering axis is the same as it was, but the position of the axle relative to the steering axis has moved. Only the trail changes in that scenario, not the head angle (rake).

As I said, people used to do this with some of the smaller bikes back in the late sixties, and the results were a little odd, frankly.

  • tmauto69

Posted March 15, 2007 - 05:57 PM

#10

Grey I understand you points and I appreciate your feedback. You seem to be very knowledgable when it comes to Yamahas and I respect your opinion. I realize that the YZF will never turn like a RMZ, but I do believe from talking to many people that it can be made to turn better than what is delivered stock. I tried your sag tip and it worked. I went from 110 to 102 and it worked so much better. My next step will be trying 98mm. I do know though that DV12 and Chad ran 22.5mm as did the Morgan racing guys up in Canada. From what I was told it made a huge difference. I would think that they could run any offset they wanted to and I am pretty sure they tested as much as they could to figure out which works best.

Believe me, I do not want to spend another $500 on this bike. I wish I could have just rolled it out of the showroom, put my Flexxbars on and raced it like I did with the Suzuki. Maybe I need more time on it to get comfortable, but right now I just do not have the same confidence cornering as I did with the RMZ and for me that is a big deal. Hopefully the 22.5mm will make the gap between the two much smaller. Other than that I love the bike. The zipty mod is well worth it, my FC suspension is the best I have ever been on, and the bike feels 20lbs lighter than the suzuki. I really do like it and if I could get it to turn just a bit better, it would be perfect.


Hate to disappoint you, but I had an '05 RMZ 450 and I now have an '06 YZ 450 w/ 22.5 RG3's on it and it don't turn as good. I have ran the YZ from day one with the RG3's on it, because I already had them from a YZ250, so I just put them on there and never looked back. I am riding it this weekend for the first time with the stock triples on though. I was going to sell it and I took the RG3's off, but I have a hare scramble on Sunday so I am running it. I will let you know if I notice a difference.

  • Huckster

Posted March 15, 2007 - 06:11 PM

#11

As I said in my earlier post, I do not expect the YZ to turn as well as the suzuki no matter what I do. What I am hoping to do is make it turn better than it does stock. Does your YZ turn better with the 22.5's than it did stock? That is my Question? Pease let me know what you think?

  • The Italian Stallion

Posted March 15, 2007 - 06:48 PM

#12

Huckster I just wrote you a private message check it out it is about the clamps





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