Please listen to my starter and tell me what's wrong


48 replies to this topic
  • Toinky

Posted December 29, 2006 - 08:22 PM

#1

Here is a recording (from a helmet cam) of my '06 WR450 (all free mods) with ~600 miles on it. The starter gradually started screeching like this, but has gotten worse and worse, to the point it sounds like it's gonna blow up. Click here to play .wmv file of horrible starter noise.

  • 1BLUEsky

Posted December 29, 2006 - 08:50 PM

#2

Well i hope someone can help both of us. I have an 03 that was doing that so i pulled the battery and just kick start it.since the bike is down for other repairs I plan to pull the starter and look at the brushes.I'm curious in the free mods did you " disconnect" the light blue wire that is supposed to free up more current by bypassing the neutral safety switch?

  • Toinky

Posted December 29, 2006 - 09:05 PM

#3

did you " disconnect" the light blue wire

No. Pulled the grey wire, but not the blue.

  • rrliedt

Posted December 30, 2006 - 10:59 AM

#4

hmm... My 05 450 starter made that sound a couple of times but it seemed to be only when the engine is really hot. Once it cools down, it seems to be just fine. :lol: It's a little scarry since it sounds pretty bad... I haven't worried about too much since it does not happen frequently. Hopefully your problem goes away too.

By the way, I would use the kickstarter when it sounds like that.

  • msgbean

Posted December 30, 2006 - 04:04 PM

#5

It sounds like some bearing surfaces need some lube. Its definitely time to open up the starter and check it out.

  • drzjay400e

Posted December 30, 2006 - 04:10 PM

#6

Well guys. My 05 wr450f had the same issues. it was taken to the dealer. they would not fix itfor free so a new starter was bought:cry: and installed. Problem fixed:banana: . The other starter was not fixable per the tech.

  • drzjay400e

Posted December 30, 2006 - 04:13 PM

#7

Also the same exact thing happen like you were discribing and I was also told the starter stays ingaged as the motor is running. so be careful you do not wait too long to fix it. :lol:

  • Toinky

Posted December 30, 2006 - 07:35 PM

#8

I really don't want to lay out the cash for a new starter. I was hoping to identify the source to do selective repairs (e.g., starter brushes, starter clutch,...). Anyone had any luck fixing such a problem without doing a total replacement?

It made the noise only a little the first of the day (when the bike was cold), and got worse as the day progressed, possibly because of engine temp, but I thought it was due to more usage.

Oh, and I did start kicking it (ugh!) when it got this bad.

  • Poway1464

Posted December 31, 2006 - 08:55 AM

#9

Take it off and take it in to an electric shop. They rebuild mc starters as well as car starters. MC electric starters been around a long time, although I haven't had to rebuild one yet, so you shouldn't have a problem. The local shop rebuilt one of my Waverunner starters, but they are pretty generic. But they will at least be able to bench test it.

  • rrliedt

Posted December 31, 2006 - 10:43 AM

#10

It sounds like we have a similar issue, but I’m sorry to hear that your problem is much worse. To me it sounds like a bearing in the starter is on the verge of seizing. On mine, since it only happened on an extremely worked (i.e. hot) engine, I though maybe the differences in thermal expansion between the different materials decreased the clearances in the bearing too much and it began to seize. This is just a guess though. I’ve never torn into one of these, so I don’t know how the bearing arrangement is... It might be as simple as re-shimming the axial play to give a wee bit more play [maybe…]. Hopefully somebody that has some experience with these starters pipes in here.

I would be very interested in hearing about your solution/fix… Good luck and keep us posted. I, personally, wouldn’t take it to a shop or buy a new one until I’ve made my best attempt to understand and fix it myself – but that’s just me.

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  • msgbean

Posted December 31, 2006 - 11:13 AM

#11

Like I said. Why don't you open it up and put a small amount of grease on the the bushings. The starter doesn't have ball bearings. And like rrliedt said you might need to reshim it if the bushings have worn but lubing it will definatly help.

  • Deezy

Posted December 31, 2006 - 01:47 PM

#12

Mine does this also. My theory is that when the battery is not fully charged, it does not spin the starter fast and strong enough to spin the flywheel. And it slips. My cure for this is....I always kick start when cold.

Reasons: The battery doesn't take long to start losing it's charge. When it's cold (or when you first unload your bike) you usually have a stable surface to kick it over anyway. I take advantage of this rather than burning up the battery trying to e-start the bike. After you've been riding a while and you are in the trails, your battery has been fully recharged and this is when the starter works best. After all, you only really need the magic button when in a tight situation. :confused:

Probably not the best or correct solution as you would expect that it should start perfectly everytime. But since i started doing this, I have never heard that sound again. Maybe someday i will have to replace the battery or the starter but for now everything seems honky dory. :lol:

  • 1BLUEsky

Posted January 03, 2007 - 09:20 PM

#13

I pulled my starter apart, about 7 pieces, and found that the commutator where the brushes ride was corroded.I cleaned it with emery cloth per the manual and got the rest of the black residue off the housing and everything else,lubed the shaft where it rests in the housing and put it back on.Unfortunately the battery was low and I couldnt start the bike due to other work being done but it did spin quietly.You will need to loosen the carb,clutch cable bracket, and the external oil lines to make room for its removal.I found a bunch of wet dirt underneath the boot that is supposed to seal the starter connection so after cleaning this use silicon or electrical tape( yeah, like the stuff used on the ground connection)to seal it up.I think that once everything is clean and tight the problem should be solved.good luck

  • Toinky

Posted January 04, 2007 - 07:59 PM

#14

I finally had time to pull my starter, too. I readily isolated the noise to be in the starter motor itself rather than other components (e.g., the torque limiter, starter clutch, etc.).

I found the same rust/mud problem on the hot side connector, but that obviously isn't what was making the screeching noise.

I pulled the starter apart and found, unlike 1BLUEsky, that the brushes looked good and the contacts on the motor shaft were fine. The motor itself had not been rubbing. The only thing I could find to possibly account for the noise was a bearing (contrary to an earlier post) on the top end and a bushing on the bottom end. The bearing seemed fine, but the bushing seemed worn oddly and out of round with a lot more slop than seems good. I therefore am assuming that this amount of slop has been allowing the motor spindle to vibrate/rattle and make the screeching noise.

After cleaning the starter myself and lubing the bearing and bushing, I put it back together and tested it off the bike. It purred like a kitten and did not make the noise at all.

However, rather than putting it back on the bike and seeing how it fared, I figured I'd better do something about the bushing. Yahama does not sell parts for the bushing or the bearing--hence the reports that people have been told they have to buy a new starter. Seems like a bad design or production process that is only worsened by the fact that you have to buy the entire starter (at over $200) to get it fixed.

I have taken my starter to a local shop to have them see about replacing the bushing. I'll let you guys know how that turns out and if that, in fact, fixes the problem completely.

  • drzjay400e

Posted January 05, 2007 - 03:06 PM

#15

That is a lot more then I would have done:worthy:
But my ride time is very important and in the long run it is best just to cough up the cheeze and take the pipe. Only in the name of dirtbiking:ride:

  • matt450

Posted January 05, 2007 - 03:34 PM

#16

My 06 made that noise when it was really cold but after I started it up and went to restart it later it was fine!

  • ausgeflippt13

Posted January 05, 2007 - 04:27 PM

#17

hell good to hear that was all it was. Kudos on the willingness to do research before bothering to bring in your bike. Here at the U we build a formula-style racecar using a GSX-R600 motor and the last time our starter sounded like that the starter clutch had shattered into a bizzillion pieces...

  • duke2au

Posted January 07, 2007 - 12:38 PM

#18

It sounds like we have a similar issue, but I’m sorry to hear that your problem is much worse. To me it sounds like a bearing in the starter is on the verge of seizing. On mine, since it only happened on an extremely worked (i.e. hot) engine, I though maybe the differences in thermal expansion between the different materials decreased the clearances in the bearing too much and it began to seize. This is just a guess though. I’ve never torn into one of these, so I don’t know how the bearing arrangement is... It might be as simple as re-shimming the axial play to give a wee bit more play [maybe…]. Hopefully somebody that has some experience with these starters pipes in here.

I would be very interested in hearing about your solution/fix… Good luck and keep us posted. I, personally, wouldn’t take it to a shop or buy a new one until I’ve made my best attempt to understand and fix it myself – but that’s just me.



Your actually right on the money here, with the bearings. Although what happened with mine is that the bearing in the back of the starter had too much clearance. What you hear is a very high pitched vibration that is wreaking havoc on your starter shaft...DONT USE IT IN THAT COND..I got around to taking it apart yesterday and saw that the spindle was all pitted. Other than that, it was trying to spin and start the bike. I had the same sound until I put some good grease in the bearing areas and bloted it back up.. So far so good. I dont expect this to last long as the clearances have gone out of spec.

I might add that this is my second starter. They shoudl have a sticker on them stating "FOR EMERGENCY USE ONLY". You will eventually have to relpace it.

BTW, when it comes apart, sont forget to seal up the rubber seals really well with some kind of repellant grease. Water and grit is a magor cause of failure. I first noticed my problem on a really boggy wet day riding.

  • Toinky

Posted January 08, 2007 - 02:38 PM

#19

Well, after trips to several shops, I'm told that the cost of replacing the bushing will be about the same as a new starter! The problem is that the bushing is not a standard size, so I'd have to start with one that was close and then have it machined down to fit. Because of the location of the bushing deep inside the housing, there would be lots of cash expended for labor fees, and that's where it becomes cost prohibitive. I suppose I'll have to pony up the money for a new one (something I really wanted to avoid:bonk:), but the thought occurred to me that perhaps having a new bushing, made of more robust material, would be better than the original--it seems like a Yamaha engineering flaw if it has happened to so many of us. (You should hear my KTM buddies razzing me!)

Here is my conjecture as to why this problem occurs. To avoid having to keep the rear bushing lubed, Yamaha puts in some sort of fiber/metallic bushing that, to me, seems almost like plastic. Because it's made of this material (rather than brass or other typically durable material in other bushings), it is prone to wear. Once it starts to wear and get out of tolerance, the motor spindle vibrates and screeches. What to do?

I read a couple of posts on this thread that implied one could somehow "shim" a sloppy bushing. I'd sure appreciate some tips on how this might be done (at least as a stop-gap method to ride this weekend).

  • crooks420

Posted January 08, 2007 - 06:21 PM

#20

You might want to check out Mc Master Carr http://www.mcmaster.com/

Look under "power transmission" , then "plain bearings". See if you can find something that will work.

Jesse




 
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