650R Clutch Plate Mods


14 replies to this topic
  • motopsycho650

Posted December 24, 2006 - 07:11 PM

#1

I was just reading in the Pig Pen site about adding the extra clutch plate. Since I have some down time due to snow, I thought about doing this to my '03.

It says there is room for 1 extra steel plate. It also says to add it to the outside of the clutch pack. Wouldn't that wear out the pressure plate? Instead of the pressure plate making contact with a stationary friction plate, it's now going to make contact with a moving steel plate.

Just want to see what you guys think.

  • xr1million

Posted December 24, 2006 - 07:26 PM

#2

I havent read the little tech tip but I know the metals are usually locked to the inner hub which the pressure plate locks into. If you put an extra metal in there on last... then the pressure plate would push against the metal then push the metal agains the fiber... there would be less wear on the preesure plate since the metal would take the pressure/abuse/friction.

  • XR4DEZ

Posted December 24, 2006 - 10:02 PM

#3

Take everything out to the basket and put in 7 fibers and 6 steels. This clutch hooks up well but is a bit grabby. Works great in the desert. There's an article on Scott Summers' website about the clutch pack you're considering.

  • ESS

Posted December 25, 2006 - 01:21 AM

#4

The extra steel plate goes in first, then put the clutch pack in as usual. I had to re-adjust the cable at the main adjuster. It had to be adjusted a lot. The little extra steel plate makes it so much fatter that it almost doesn't engage unless it's adjusted all the way out.

  • motopsycho650

Posted December 25, 2006 - 08:13 AM

#5

That's interesting. 3 responces, and 3 completely different answers.

Having reviewed all 3, and taking a look a the exploded pics in the manual, as well as the pics on http://www.xr650r.us/clutch/, I have to agree with the newbie xr1million. The pressure plate is fastened to the center, same as the steel plates. The pressure plate will be making contact to a part that is spinning the same speed. Good Call!!! I was thinking the pressure plate was fixed with the friction plates.

I haven't read the little tech tip but I know the metals are usually locked to the inner hub which the pressure plate locks into. If you put an extra metal in there on last... then the pressure plate would push against the metal then push the metal agains the fiber... there would be less wear on the pressure plate since the metal would take the pressure/abuse/friction.


XR4DEZ's idea would probably work just as well. The only thing is, I'm not sure about the contact surface on the hub it's self. Stock, the inside plate is a steel, and maybe that contact surface needs a steel there.

Sorry ESS, adding the steel plate on the inside puts a steel against a steel. Unless you re-arranged the other frictions/steels, 2 steel plates together will be a big problem down the road.

That's for the help. Sorry to doubt the Hay Maker & the Pig Pen, I just needed a different viewpoint. My bike has had 3 abused seasons, and 7,000 miles put on it. Like the Hay Maker (creator of the Pig Pen) I suspect I have felt a little clutch slippage on occasion. I'm hoping the added plate will allow me to hit 10,000 miles before I replace the entire clutch.

  • ESS

Posted December 25, 2006 - 10:42 AM

#6

I could be wrong, but this is straight from the www.xr650r.us article "After everything is all set, coat the new steel disc with oil and install it into the basket. If all you are doing is adding the plate, go ahead and throw the rest of the clutchpack in." I take this to mean the steel disc goes first, then the rest of the clutch pack goes in as usual.

And if you go to the Summers Racing
( http://www.srcinc.net/html/101-02.html ) site it clearly showing the extra steel disc goes first, then the rest of the clutch pack. Look down the page close to the end to the picture that says "extra smooth plate" pointing to it being the first one in the basket.

Oh, and it wouldn't be two steel plates together. It would be hub, extra steel plate, judder ring and spring, the one odd sized friction plate to start the pack, then another steel plate. The odd sized friction plate fits around the judder ring and spring, so the next plate to touch the extra one is a friction plate.

  • hypersthenos

Posted December 25, 2006 - 01:13 PM

#7

This seems like a good fix for a slipping clutch if detected early in the wear life of the plates. I haven't yet noticed any slippage in mine yet but the seller gave me a new genuine Honda clutch plate set still in the package. As I'm going to update my bushing I think I'll add one of the new steel plates & save the rest until the old setup wears out. Is this mod going to cause the clutch to be too grabby for traffic use on a dual sported bike I wonder?

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  • XR4DEZ

Posted December 25, 2006 - 05:55 PM

#8

The pack I discribed starts with a fiber, the folks at Honda Off-Road thought it worked best in the 650.

  • motopsycho650

Posted December 25, 2006 - 07:58 PM

#9

I could be wrong, but this is straight from the www.xr650r.us.com article "After everything is all set, coat the new steel disc with oil and install it into the basket. If all you are doing is adding the plate, go ahead and throw the rest of the clutchpack in." I take this to mean the steel disc goes first, then the rest of the clutch pack goes in as usual.

And if you go to the Summers Racing
( http://www.srcinc.net/html/101-02.html ) site it clearly showing the extra steel disc goes first, then the rest of the clutch pack. Look down the page close to the end to the picture that says "extra smooth plate" pointing to it being the first one in the basket.

Oh, and it wouldn't be two steel plates together. It would be hub, extra steel plate, judder ring and spring, the one odd sized friction plate to start the pack, then another steel plate. The odd sized friction plate fits around the judder ring and spring, so the next plate to touch the extra one is a friction plate.


I think all that is correct. I think you're overlooking the fact that the basket is out of the bike when you install the new steel plate. It's the first in the basket, so when the basket is installed, it will end up being the outer most plate.

No problem. I do things like that too. Thanx for all the input.

  • ESS

Posted December 25, 2006 - 08:03 PM

#10

The pack I discribed starts with a fiber, the folks at Honda Off-Road thought it worked best in the 650.


I think your talking about the other clutch mod people are doing. It's also described at www.xr650r.us . The stock pack does have 7 fibers and 6 steels, but the first fiber (5 in the pic) is made so the judder ring and spring fit inside it. Instead you would remove fiber #5, judder ring and spring, and replace it with a regular fiber plate (6 in the pic). So you would have 7 full fibers and 6 steels. I've been told this works exactly as you were told, "clutch hooks up well but is a bit grabby". Go below and put in your bike make and year. Then look in the clutch section. You will see part # 5 and 6.

http://www.rockwallh...tion_detail.asp

  • ESS

Posted December 25, 2006 - 08:24 PM

#11

I think all that is correct. I think you're overlooking the fact that the basket is out of the bike when you install the new steel plate. It's the first in the basket, so when the basket is installed, it will end up being the outer most plate.

No problem. I do things like that too. Thanx for all the input.



Now I'm getting confused. Maybe I should clarify that it's the inner basket just like the one in the picture on the Summers site. I would consider the outer most plate the one touching the pressure plate. You don't have to have the basket out to do this mod. The inner basket is in when you install the steel plate. Just place the extra steel plate first so it's the one farthest from the pressure plate. You want a fiber touching the pressure plate, not a steel. I hope I don't come off like a dick or know-it-all, but I've done this mod to my bike. I didn't just read about it. I'm just trying to make sure someone reading this that's going to do it gets it done right. I think I'm right. It works.:thumbsup: I think the guy from the Pig Pen that wrote that article is on this forum. Maybe he can chime in and help us out here?? You might be getting a little confused looking at the pic on the Pig Pen because the photo on the left at the bottom of the page is showing a steel plate to the outside. I think he is just showing how it should look before you put the last offset fiber on. The last fiber gets offset from the rest and then the pressure plate is installed.

  • XR4DEZ

Posted December 25, 2006 - 09:58 PM

#12

I think your talking about the other clutch mod people are doing. It's also described at www.xr650r.us . The stock pack does have 7 fibers and 6 steels, but the first fiber (5 in the pic) is made so the judder ring and spring fit inside it. Instead you would remove fiber #5, judder ring and spring, and replace it with a regular fiber plate (6 in the pic). So you would have 7 full fibers and 6 steels. I've been told this works exactly as you were told, "clutch hooks up well but is a bit grabby". Go below and put in your bike make and year. Then look in the clutch section. You will see part # 5 and 6.

http://www.rockwallh...tion_detail.asp


Yep you're correct ,everything comes out to the basket. No judder or small fiber, just the 7 regular fibers and the 6 steel. It is a little grabby when the bike is hot but if you have an OTF perch you can adjust it to operate smoothly with a couple of turns. All the desert guys that still run or race the 650(that I know)use this pack.

  • BWB63

Posted December 26, 2006 - 09:41 PM

#13

It will scare the :lol: out of you the first time it judders and squeals but, that is what it's going to do. It is much better, quicker lock up and the clutch doesn't wear the big groove in the basket. I don't think the plate warp, turn blue as much.

  • motopsycho650

Posted December 31, 2006 - 06:23 AM

#14

Sorry ESS, adding the steel plate on the inside puts a steel against a steel. Unless you re-arranged the other frictions/steels, 2 steel plates together will be a big problem down the road.


Sorry ESS again. His solution ended up being the solution I used. After tear-down, I looked at adding the extra steel plate on the outside of the pack, up against the pressure plate. The issue I saw is this, the pressure plate has some raised teeth that look like they fit into the same splines as the steel plate. If there was an extra steel there, it looks like these pressure plate teeth would hit it.

I ended up removing all the stock frictions & steels. I removed the Judder Spring, and the ring it rides against. After inspecting all the frictions & steels, I noticed the Judder spring had worn a decent groove in the first (inside most) steel plate. Since I'm looking to add longevity with this mod, I removed the grooved steel plate and replaced it with the new steel plate.

I then installed the grooved steel plate into the inner clutch basket, with the groove facing in. This gave me the smooth side for the clutch pack to make contact with. Then I re-installed everything as it came out. First the Judder Spring spacer ring, then the judder spring, then the rest of the clutch pack as it was originally installed.

I had to totally re-adjust the clutch cable, but the clutch does seem to work better than it did. It engages/disengages further out on the lever, which I like. It also seems to be a better bite. I am very happy with the mod.

Here's the idea, for those who are curious. The inside most friction disc makes contact directly against the inner clutch basket. Being that the Judder Spring, and the spacer ring for the judder are also making contact against the the inner basket, this could set up some uneven wear on the inner basket, (which is expensive).

Adding a steel plate in the inside-most position gives you a replaceable part for the inner-most friction plate, and the Judder Spring to make contact with. This will add a lot of life to the inner basket.

Also, because of the extra space being taken up by the extra plate, the pressure plate springs are now at a higher level of pre-load tension. More spring tension = more pressure pushing the frictions & steels together. The result is a tighter clutch engagement, which means less wear & less heat. I've been told that there is room for the extra steel straight from the factory, so I recommend this mod for everyone.

Here's the part that confused me. In the pig pen, Haymaker describes installing the extra steel on the INSIDE, just as Summers Racing does. But one of the pictures in the Pig Pen clutch mods page shows the extra steel installed on the OUTSIDE. The picture was taken before the pressure plate was installed.

Now, for the Judder Spring. As I said, I left it in. Some people talk about removing it. The Judder Spring is simply a concave shaped ring that acts as a pressure spring. As you engage the clutch, the Judder Spring forces the 6 outer most friction/steels to bite first. I.E. The 6 outer pairs bite a split second before the inner most friction plate bites against the inner basket. The result is a smoother transition from engagement to disengagement and visa versa. If you ride in places where you slip the clutch a lot, this is a good thing. This is why I left it in.

Like I said before, the Judder Spring naturally cuts a groove in one of the steel plates. So, being it's good for a smooth clutch, it's probably going to be the first thing in the clutch to wear out.

Removing the Judder Spring will cause a much more instant engagement/disengagement point. Some riders will think it's too harsh of a hit, but racers may like the change. Because of the instant engagement/disengagement point, this will also reduce heat and wear on the clutch. If you fully engage/disengage the clutch while you ride, as opposed to slip it, this would be a good mod for you. To remove it, you must remove the spring, the spacer ring, and the inner most friction plate, (the one with the larger inner diameter). You will need to buy a single regular friction plate, (matches the other 6 friction plates). Simply install the new friction plate instead of reinstalling the spacer ring, judder, and the special friction plate.

Sorry to write a novel here, but I figured someone would be interested.

  • hypersthenos

Posted January 01, 2007 - 10:29 AM

#15

Thanks for the clarification. I haven't done this mod yet & after reviewing these posts I was all the more confused. Now I'm confident that it's the right way to go.





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