Auto oil use for YZ426?


31 replies to this topic
  • shrekka

Posted December 18, 2006 - 02:04 AM

#1

Hi there

yes l know this has been done to death, but i want my questions answered...
Your help will be appreciated...
I see in some older threads that people are saying they are using Castrol GTX auto oil in there YZ426s right? , whithout any problems.
I copied this from the Castrol site in OZ

Castrol GTX Quality Engine Protection for Older Vehicles
Typically pre-1984 models
A mineral 20W-50 viscosity engine oil that provides quality engine protection for older vehicles.
It is suitable for both unleaded and lead replacement petrol engines.
SAE 20W-50
API SH
Castrol GTX is a mineral based oil

I was told not to use mineral based oil in our 426ers...But if you look on the 2002 manual for this bike it states API "SH" or higher quality can be used.Castrol GTX is a API "SH" oil. ..It does not state anything apart from there own brand of oil to use (Yamalube of course)...
In Australia we are limited to the types of oil we get here and dont have the range say like the USA have...
So can u use this oil in our bikes or not?

thanks
shrekka

  • SRT426

Posted December 18, 2006 - 03:18 AM

#2

If i remember correctly most automotive oils use friction modifiers and other chemical enhancements that are not good to use with a wet clutch like our 426's due to clutch slippage. I think this is correct but don't quote me on it.

  • Fastest1

Posted December 18, 2006 - 04:54 AM

#3

Mineral based are fine, but I thought it was SJ or higher. If the manual says SH or higher, use it. BTW Shell Rotella works great.

  • 642MX

Posted December 18, 2006 - 07:19 AM

#4

It will work fine. All automotive oils will work, except the ones that have the "energy conserving II" label on the back of them. The ECII oils could cause clutch slippage, use them in your car, not your bike.

  • grayracer513

Posted December 18, 2006 - 11:02 AM

#5

The key here is the SH grading, and the phrase, "for older vehicles". Older oils and those still formulated for motorcycles, racing, and older cars use a group of anti-wear/boundary lubricants based in phosphorus and zinc. These are important at times when the oil film is either not present or has failed to bear the load placed on the lubricated part. They work by embedding themselves in the surface of the metal parts and preventing the two from coming into direct, metal to metal contact.

A few years ago, the EPA decided that phosphorus was bad for catalytic converters, and order it removed or severely reduced in newer oils, those graded SJ or later. Until recently, there was not a satisfactory substitute for these AW compounds, although there are now some moly based additives that work well.

Anyway, the reduction in zinc and phosphorus was of enough concern to Yamaha and some other Japanese manufacturers that they had the JASO MA and MB standards created to deal with it.

If your motor oil says either JASO MA, or API SG/SH, and does NOT say API EC II, it should be at least OK. Note that many commercial grade oils (API C*) will often mention that they meet SG/SH, and most of them do.

But, there is another issue with automotive oils; shear stability. Most of them are not intended for use as gear lubricants, and as a result, many, even most, are not capable of retaining their viscosity for any length of time when used in a YZF engine/transmission combination. It can take a surprisingly short time to turn some 20w-50's into 20w-30's because of this.

If you have the recommendations of several people who have used any certain automotive oil successfully over a long period, than it's probably OK to use. But change it out frequently.

  • Vibeguy

Posted December 18, 2006 - 02:39 PM

#6

I used Mobil 1 15w-50 in my 426 for 3 years with excellent results and now use it in my 06-450 (the Mobil 1, 15w-50 extended performance gold cap)

I also run it in the gearboxes of my vintage Maicos with excellent results.

But as Grey said, I also change it often becuase they only hold a relatively small amount of oil and it's in a very tough environment, meshing gears.

The Castrol oil will also work fine in your 426.:thumbsup:

  • shrekka

Posted December 18, 2006 - 11:27 PM

#7

Hi there to everyone who replied

thankyou for your great info you gave me on this questions l have about Castrol oil usage for my 426.
trust me l am very fussy owner with my bikes...But if for instance l do a small ride then l would change it on the 2nd ride.. Me and my mates dont ride hard and i do respect my bike...

Shrekka:thumbsup:

  • Novi2kRT

Posted December 18, 2006 - 11:51 PM

#8

Not to add more dead horses to beat on. But as another 426 owner that doesn't wanna see the ol' girl die a painfull death, but also doesn't want to pay huge prices for fancy shmancy motorcycle shop oils if it isn't needed, I would like to get a lil more detail on this.

The Mobil 1 15w 50, is this the full synthetic stuff or a blend? I don't know as much about oils as I should or wish I did, I just don't want my bike to die because I try to save a penny to put elsewhere.

I like the idea of picking up a case of affordable Mobil 1, versus a couple quarts of "DAMN YOU WANT HOW MUCH" specialty oil. Though I must say, I think I have had the smoothest shifting with the Fuchs Silkolene so far. The red stuff, but have tried so many oils as new weekly shop owner favorites pop up that I am losing track.

  • shrekka

Posted December 19, 2006 - 02:54 AM

#9

Hi Novi2kRT

its not the fact that l dont want to spend the money, the fact is here, bloody oil in OZ in expensive... and the other point too, is the range we get here is quite small to pick from compared to say the USA.. we dont have the population and the market is smaller.
Some of the brand that is mentioned her in this threads we dont get at all..


Shrekka

  • Novi2kRT

Posted December 19, 2006 - 09:36 AM

#10

Oil is pretty pricey here in Hawaii as well, not sure how it compares with your prices, but I know I have seen oil prices on this rock in the shops at nearly double what they are in mainland shops.

Kind of hurts to spend $25 - $30 and change it every couple rides. But if the oil is truly better for the bike than a good auto engine oil, I will stick to it.

Visit the ThumperTalk Store for the lowest prices on motorcycle / ATV parts and accessories - Guaranteed
  • buzzgrizz

Posted December 19, 2006 - 03:10 PM

#11

We use the Mobil 1 4T fully synthetic oil and so far have had great results. It has a rating of API SG, SH/CF, JASO MA. It is made just for 4 stroke motorcycles with the transmission/clutch set ups we have. It is only $8 per quart at AutoZone.

  • Vibeguy

Posted December 19, 2006 - 03:50 PM

#12

The Mobil 1 15w-50 Extended Performance (gold cap) is a 100% synthetic oil. The fore runner to this oil was the 15w-50 red cap which had a real big following on TT, it seemed to be one of the most popular oils being used in the thumpers. About 2 years ago Mobil dropped the "red cap" and released the gold cap extended performance oil. A bunch of us that used the red cap were worried that the new oil had a higher content of friction resucers that could cause clutch problems. I called the Mobil 1 tech line and spoke to a lubrication engineer and explained the situation to him. I asked if they had increased the amount of moly in the oil. He gave me the song and dance about the chemical properties of the oil being secret and that he could only tell me in person so he could kill me afterwords. I send in and review about 200 oil samples a month so I sent in a sample of the red cap and the gold cap. Guess what? They are excatly the same oil, right down to the parts per million of every additive, can you say marketing ploy....

Sorry to be long winded to a short answer. I have started an oil analysis/chemical properties spreadsheet on some of the various mc oils, if anyone is interested PM me with an email address and I'll get it too you. Also, below is a link to a lubrication forum not unlike TT if anyone is interested.

http://theoildrop.se.../ubbthreads.php

  • grayracer513

Posted December 19, 2006 - 04:35 PM

#13

Mobil 1 MX4T is an extremely good oil, and were it not for its price, I would still be using it. At $8/qt, it costs me two dollars more than my price on Amsoil MCF.

Both of these have been proven in viscosity retention tests (ASTM-D6278), gear performance (ASTM-D5182), and wear protection (ASTM D4172), as well as a number of other less critical, but nevertheless important criteria. Amsoil MCF and MCV are the only engine oils of any kind that I'm aware of that also carry the API GL-1 grade, meaning that they are a legitimate standalone gear lube in addition to an engine oil.

I have not seen the results of such tests on Mobil 1 EP oils, or on a number of others that I think might do well in them. If they exist, I'd like to see them. There's no question that Gold Cap is good engine oil, but I'd like to see it pass D6278 just for fun. As long as they don't add EC-II to the label, it should be OK still. Certainly, there are enough people using it without any clutch trouble that it shouldn't be a worry.

  • DigilubeJay

Posted December 20, 2006 - 05:40 AM

#14

The key here is the SH grading, and the phrase, "for older vehicles". Older oils and those still formulated for motorcycles, racing, and older cars use a group of anti-wear/boundary lubricants based in phosphorus and zinc. These are important at times when the oil film is either not present or has failed to bear the load placed on the lubricated part. They work by embedding themselves in the surface of the metal parts and preventing the two from coming into direct, metal to metal contact.

I think that you will find the prowess of these "older vehicle" oils is not with their remaining formulated as past oils were, but rather with added components that would benefit an older motor with worn seals, etc...
ZDDP, which I assume you are refering to when you talk about a "group" of anti-wear/boundary lubricants, is still used in oils marketed towards cars.

I think you will find that perhaps molybdenum performs as you have stated these types of additives do, but other additives, including ZDDP use a slightly different mechanism in how they work. As an example, some boundary lubricants (sacraficial) allow the shearing off of the initial layer of the metals molecular structure, yet will use the resulting pure Fe in a chemical reaction to create a super hard iron hydrate, that will then "coat" the surface with a full layer of the hydrate, rather than provide a layered "sliding on a deck of cards" type of mechanism.

A few years ago, the EPA decided that phosphorus was bad for catalytic converters, and order it removed or severely reduced in newer oils, those graded SJ or later. Until recently, there was not a satisfactory substitute for these AW compounds, although there are now some moly based additives that work well.

Actually, the EPA didn't order a reduction of phosphorus, but rather made the lowered level part of the "Energy Conserving" certifications criteria.

And only when the formulator found that when his oil did have the ZDDP levels reduced, it would put it below the threshold of passing other tests that are critical to gaining the certification. So, the slack created by taking out some ZDDP had to be taken up by something.

And there were then, as there are now, LOADS of other additives and compounds available for use that would suit the bill just fine. But many variables come into play when a formulator is deciding on what to use.
Finding a synergistic combination of fluids and additives is a never ending stuggle, which is always being improved upon. And even when a suitable combination is found, raw material price, production costs, and availability also play a critical role in the recipe decision.
The simple fact that "moly" turned up in many dubious moto writings, and the association of knowing that the component molybdenum disulfide will absolutely make a wet clutch...ANY wet clutch slip, has twisted itself into the daily warning to not use an oil with the Energy Conserving rating.

The partially informed consumer has heard a few stories about "moly" and has turned them into a plethora of myths. Often times the more intelligent of the partially informed takes what information they have, and form their own conclusions as to how things really are, but really do nothing more than perpetuate what is allready a rediculously unfounded continuation of those myths.

The truth is, engine oils do not contain molybdenum disulfide. If they contain moly at all, it will be of a soluable type that has been proven to work well with wet clutch situations of all flavors. The very same moly used in Mobil1 15w-50 and Racing 4T, as is in Redline, and Motul, and a plethora of others both in the boutiques and on the shelf.

The EC certification of oils isn't what folks think it is. Sure, the certification criteria states that there must be a ceiling on phosphorus levels, but there are lots of other additives available, both well known additives, as well as some not even detecable by analysis, that can do the job of the slight amount of missing phosphorus. Other than molybdenum disulfide, which isn't used to begin with, not many of these items will cause any detriment to your clutch action whatsoever.
The myth that we shouldn't use EC rated oils has been blown way out of proportion, and most everything that is warned about, is simply unfounded.

  • Monster04

Posted December 20, 2006 - 04:26 PM

#15

they dont sell rotella in australia is there anything similar from other brands

  • GONE1445

Posted December 20, 2006 - 09:56 PM

#16

what is wrong with yamalube?? its not that epencive here maybe there its more I dont know but that is what I run

  • grayracer513

Posted December 21, 2006 - 08:16 AM

#17

YamaLube is an SJ/SL oil last I saw, doesn't retain its viscosity very well, and has occasionally been implicated in some clutch problems (not slipping, but grabbing and or drag). It's OK, but there is a lot better available.

  • DigilubeJay

Posted December 21, 2006 - 11:14 AM

#18

YamaLube is an SJ/SL oil last I saw, doesn't retain its viscosity very well, and has occasionally been implicated in some clutch problems (not slipping, but grabbing and or drag). It's OK, but there is a lot better available.

And if proper forensic investigatins were made in each one of those instances, we would find the true mechanical culprit of those clutch problems.

  • bhuss69

Posted December 22, 2006 - 11:45 AM

#19

a couple of people up someone talked about shell rotella, is that the same oil used for the ferrari enzo from the factory or am i getting that mixed with chevron oil?

  • Vibeguy

Posted December 23, 2006 - 04:50 PM

#20

I think Ferrari specifies Shell Helix (high $$$ Synthetic) for their cars





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