XR65R Stock Exhaust vs ?


21 replies to this topic
  • philipstjohn

Posted November 04, 2006 - 05:17 PM

#1

I am running a drilled out stock exhaust on my uncorked 650R. I have been looking to install a Pro Circuit T-4, and a good buddy out of state loves and swears by the the new FMF Q2. Any comments on which you prefer, and why? Is it true the drilled out stock exhaust gives as good of preformance as the above mentioned? I could live with the extra weight and looks of the stock exhaust and save the $350 if all I was gaining was a cosmetic upgrade?
Please give me your feedback if you can. Thanks! :mad: :mad:

  • philipstjohn

Posted November 04, 2006 - 07:13 PM

#2

I know this is a beat to death post, but just want to hear your thoughts again on stock vs aftermarket exhausts. Thanks

  • pgiinc

Posted November 04, 2006 - 07:56 PM

#3

Hrc tip is very good

  • MindBlower

Posted November 04, 2006 - 09:22 PM

#4

aftermarket exhausts don't "usually" gain you much of anything. They can sound different, they might be a bit lighter. They definately won't last 1/2 as long as the stocker which actually works very well.
But if it Sounds faster.......................

  • philipstjohn

Posted November 05, 2006 - 05:48 AM

#5

aftermarket exhausts don't "usually" gain you much of anything. They can sound different, they might be a bit lighter. They definately won't last 1/2 as long as the stocker which actually works very well.
But if it Sounds faster.......................


When I got this bike, I took off the tip of the stock exhaust to look inside. All I see is the mid pipe coming into the canister. No packing. Is this normal? There seems to be very little resistance with exhaust flow. This seems to be a good thing. I can not see exhaust flowing any better than this set up.
Why do exhaust companies claim performance gains then?:mad:

  • InternalCombustion

Posted November 05, 2006 - 06:50 AM

#6

Aftermarket pipes are generally installed for 3 reasons:
1. improved performance
2. lighter weight
3. enhanced looks

Re #1, in the case of the BRP, most guys will tell that an uncorked stock silencer (drilled or HRC tip) will produce a very high percentage of the power that most aftermarket systems will produce.so, no real advantage.

Re #2, you will see a real weight reduction with an aftermaket pipe, varying depending on the new system's construction materials and whether or not you replace the entire system or just the silencer. So, real advantage goes to aftermarket.

Re #3, the stocker is manufactured from mild steel and will over time start to show flaked paint and rust, particularly near the ehaust ports. If you wish, this can be countered with either annual removal and repainting or wrapping the pipe, depending on your preference. A stainless or Ti header or full system will not rust (unless you do something crazy and frequently run your bike in salt conditions). So, advantage goes to aftermarket.

My own decision to go with aftermarket systems on my 650R (Pro Circuit T4) and my wife's 230F (White Bros R4) was primarily driven by #3. Yeah the bikes lost weight and gained some improved breathing and engine output, but the simple truth is: I hate rust! The fact that a stainless pipe takes on a sweet bronzed appearance after a few heat cycles is just an added bonus, imho.

Re my using different systems on the two bikes, I wanted a T4 for the wife's bike but found a great deal on the R4 that incl a great price, free shipping, a Max Air filter and a jet kit, so I really couldn't justufy the T4. After the fact, we've been 100% satisfied with the R4, fit and finish were flawless. The R4 is a tad loud and I may repack it this winter to tone it down a bit.

So bottom line is, there's lots of excellent aftermarket systems out there in use, with happy owners. Conversely, there are lots of guys and gals still using uncorked stock sysytems and quite satisfied. The deciding factor is #2 and #3.

Hope this helps.

  • InternalCombustion

Posted November 05, 2006 - 07:06 AM

#7

Why do exhaust companies claim performance gains then?:mad:

The actual design variations between the stocker and an aftermarket silenser might be subtle, but they can in any case deliver "modest" gains. In the case of the 650R, which uses a design that dates (at least) to 2000, the difference with an aftermarket silencer can be measurable.

In the case of the hyper-competitive, bleeding-edge 450 market, a totally stock 2007 CRF450 exhaust system will produce 98-99% of the power of an aftermarket system. Many times a pro will add an aftermarket system only to tune the powerband a bit, smoothing any dips or peaks that the stocker hasn't effectively delt with. Often, no real power GAINS are realized.

As well, a 450 pro might install a thin-wall Ti system to shave a pound or two, though in the case of the current 450's, their stock systems are already super light.

  • philipstjohn

Posted November 05, 2006 - 07:36 AM

#8

Aftermarket pipes are generally installed for 3 reasons:
1. improved performance
2. lighter weight
3. enhanced looks

Re #1, in the case of the BRP, most guys will tell that an uncorked stock silencer (drilled or HRC tip) will produce a very high percentage of the power that most aftermarket systems will produce.so, no real advantage.

Re #2, you will see a real weight reduction with an aftermaket pipe, varying depending on the new system's construction materials and whether or not you replace the entire system or just the silencer. So, real advantage goes to aftermarket.

Re #3, the stocker is manufactured from mild steel and will over time start to show flaked paint and rust, particularly near the ehaust ports. If you wish, this can be countered with either annual removal and repainting or wrapping the pipe, depending on your preference. A stainless or Ti header or full system will not rust (unless you do something crazy and frequently run your bike in salt conditions). So, advantage goes to aftermarket.

My own decision to go with aftermarket systems on my 650R (Pro Circuit T4) and my wife's 230F (White Bros R4) was primarily driven by #3. Yeah the bikes lost weight and gained some improved breathing and engine output, but the simple truth is: I hate rust! The fact that a stainless pipe takes on a sweet bronzed appearance after a few heat cycles is just an added bonus, imho.

Re my using different systems on the two bikes, I wanted a T4 for the wife's bike but found a great deal on the R4 that incl a great price, free shipping, a Max Air filter and a jet kit, so I really couldn't justufy the T4. After the fact, we've been 100% satisfied with the R4, fit and finish were flawless. The R4 is a tad loud and I may repack it this winter to tone it down a bit.

So bottom line is, there's lots of excellent aftermarket systems out there in use, with happy owners. Conversely, there are lots of guys and gals still using uncorked stock sysytems and quite satisfied. The deciding factor is #2 and #3.

Hope this helps.



In your hand, I know the weight difference would be very noticeable, but the weight loss would seem hard to notice on the trail. But, I am with you on the rust thing, I hate to see rust as well. Is the stock header stainless, with the stock mid pipe and silencer mild steel?:mad:

  • adam574

Posted November 05, 2006 - 08:36 AM

#9

i was jsut going to post the same thing internalcombustion did. in most cases with bike it isn't necessarily a power gain but putting the power somewhere it will be more usefull to you.

as far as the hrc tip i think it unlocks just about all of the bikes potential on stock form so you wouldn't see another jump in performance with a aftermarket one. but if your bike has alot of motor work and such then you would need an aftermarket unit.


got another question for you though. do you have any style aftermarket carb on your bike yet. if not your money would be better spent there. you see a big increase in power pretty much all across the board. or at least that whats edelbrocks dyno showed with theres on a stock bike.

  • adam574

Posted November 05, 2006 - 08:38 AM

#10

this is there graph. i don't know why all companies don't have accesable dynos graphs on there products. well i do and it is because some of them just don't work.


Posted Image

Visit the ThumperTalk Store for the lowest prices on motorcycle / ATV parts and accessories - Guaranteed
  • eastreich

Posted November 05, 2006 - 08:55 AM

#11

If you can find it, a number of years ago Dirt Bike magazine did a comparison test of many XR650R silencers. I used that test to buy the White Brothers R4 (which you can now no longer buy).

One thing that the stock exhaust has going for it that many others don't is it's completely baffled design. There is no packing to ever blow out or repack.

If you look in the end of stock can with the tip out, you can see that there is another baffle just inside the end (about 2.5 inches). The stock tip's spark arrestor screen is located between this baffle and the end of the can. If you look at the HRC tip for the 650R, you will see that the spark arrestor screen now sits forward of this first internal baffle, effectively making the last 2.5 inches of the exhaust can dead space and weight. I took a stock can and shotened it to up to this first baffle and then reused to stock tip (drilled out of course) with the spark arrestor still intact. This tip actually has an outlet larger than the HRC tip and was still a little quieter than the HRC tip in the stock can.. I preferred this setup over my WB R-4. This made the exhaust a little lighter. It was still rot as light as an aluminum can, but the stock can also sits a little lower on the bike (thus the 'dent' for brake caliper clearance). I'm betting that if you did the fancy math to determine yaw points an aftermarket system that is mounted higher, yet that is lighter, has a negligible difference to the stock exhaust (shortened) that has a lower center of gravity.

As for now, I have an XR's only system that I use to race with, but when I trail ride, that modified stock can goes back on for a little more quiet thunder in the mountains. :mad:

  • MindBlower

Posted November 05, 2006 - 09:08 AM

#12

When I got this bike, I took off the tip of the stock exhaust to look inside. All I see is the mid pipe coming into the canister. No packing. Is this normal? There seems to be very little resistance with exhaust flow. This seems to be a good thing. I can not see exhaust flowing any better than this set up.
Why do exhaust companies claim performance gains then?:mad:


Cuz nobody would buy them if they said "makes the same power as oem". :mad:
Seriously, they "might" make 1 or 2 hp difference (without a header change), but even that usually just moves the power band around a bit, might make 1.5hp more on TOP, but suffers it on the bottom end. There are some bikes that have very restrictive exhausts that might benefit more than most, but for most bikes it's minimal or not at all. Plenty of magazine comparisons have shown that over the years.

  • MindBlower

Posted November 05, 2006 - 09:13 AM

#13

Aftermarket pipes are generally installed for 3 reasons:
1. improved performance
2. lighter weight
3. enhanced looks

Re #1, in the case of the BRP, most guys will tell that an uncorked stock silencer (drilled or HRC tip) will produce a very high percentage of the power that most aftermarket systems will produce.so, no real advantage.

Re #2, you will see a real weight reduction with an aftermaket pipe, varying depending on the new system's construction materials and whether or not you replace the entire system or just the silencer. So, real advantage goes to aftermarket.

Re #3, the stocker is manufactured from mild steel and will over time start to show flaked paint and rust, particularly near the ehaust ports. If you wish, this can be countered with either annual removal and repainting or wrapping the pipe, depending on your preference. A stainless or Ti header or full system will not rust (unless you do something crazy and frequently run your bike in salt conditions). So, advantage goes to aftermarket.

My own decision to go with aftermarket systems on my 650R (Pro Circuit T4) and my wife's 230F (White Bros R4) was primarily driven by #3. Yeah the bikes lost weight and gained some improved breathing and engine output, but the simple truth is: I hate rust! The fact that a stainless pipe takes on a sweet bronzed appearance after a few heat cycles is just an added bonus, imho.

Re my using different systems on the two bikes, I wanted a T4 for the wife's bike but found a great deal on the R4 that incl a great price, free shipping, a Max Air filter and a jet kit, so I really couldn't justufy the T4. After the fact, we've been 100% satisfied with the R4, fit and finish were flawless. The R4 is a tad loud and I may repack it this winter to tone it down a bit.

So bottom line is, there's lots of excellent aftermarket systems out there in use, with happy owners. Conversely, there are lots of guys and gals still using uncorked stock sysytems and quite satisfied. The deciding factor is #2 and #3.

Hope this helps.


I've got a 21 year old XR350 with the OEM exhaust and it looks like the day it was made. I've never seen flaking paint and very seldom rust on a OEM pipe of any kind. On the other hand I've had 3 bikes with aftermarket exhausts that I had to change out because they came apart at the welds. THis is VERYYYYY common and never happens with the stockers. I don't doubt that a FEW aftermarket might approach OEM quality, but most don't and none of the ones I had were.

  • Naru

Posted November 05, 2006 - 09:21 AM

#14

Unless you have your engine heavily modified, aftermarket exhaust systems don't do a whole lot more than make your bike incredibly loud and kill your low end. I have 3 XR650R's now (wife keeps asking me if they're a collectors item or something :mad: ), and have tried the Moriwaki system, Stock drilled, Stock HRC, Big Gun, Barnums Full system, and now the stock header + FMF Q1 and Stock header + E2 on two of my bikes. On my stock-engined XR, all of the aftermarket headers all but killed the low end on the bike, with top end gains being minimal in comparison and sound shooting up to 102DB (ear ringing) with the Big Gun and Barnums and 100 with the Moriwaki w/o S/A. With a fully built 680, the low end was passable, but the bike gained substantially on the top end (read: pulls forever).

My round-about suggestion is to run with the E2 or Q2 and stock header and skip the T4. Recently while at PC's webpage I noticed the T4 price for the BRP was $674 msrp, which is ~$200 higher than any of their other systems for other bikes (most likely because 'team honda uses it' for the BRP). But in reality, the unit that Team Honda uses is nothing like the one you can buy, and the T4 isn't much better than the other open-pipes available.

  • eastreich

Posted November 05, 2006 - 09:24 AM

#15

Cuz nobody would buy them if they said "makes the same power as oem". :mad:
Seriously, they "might" make 1 or 2 hp difference (without a header change), but even that usually just moves the power band around a bit, might make 1.5hp more on TOP, but suffers it on the bottom end. There are some bikes that have very restrictive exhausts that might benefit more than most, but for most bikes it's minimal or not at all. Plenty of magazine comparisons have shown that over the years.


I agree with MindBlower (almost completely). :mad: When I bought my R4, it only made 1 or 2 horsepower more according to the test. I bought it because the Dirt Bike test claimed that it allowed the bike to rev up faster. Coming of of a KX500, that was the trait that I was looking for, and the R4 exhaust delivered on that promise. Any of the new quiet exhausts will do very little to change the overall power of the 650R, and if you are lucky enough to see a dyno report showing massive gains, I can guarantee that they were using the stock exhaust with the stock tip (not drilled out)!!!

Where I don't completely agree is with my XR's Only full competition exhaust. It is a full megaphone exhaust and it REALLY adds to the power. I would say at least 4-5 hp on the top end, and it will pull your arms out of there sockets through the midrange. My riding buddy who also has a 650R is scared of my bike with this pipe on it. But this is also with a full HRC motor kit, 41mm FCR carb, and 100+ octane race fuel. i doubt that it work well with a stock motor. You need an HRC motor or a 680 kit with a high compression piston to see any gains out of this exhaust. It is also WAY too loud to use anywhere but on the race track. :mad: But that is why I put the quieter modified stock can back on when I'm trail riding.

  • InternalCombustion

Posted November 05, 2006 - 09:35 AM

#16

In your hand, I know the weight difference would be very noticeable, but the weight loss would seem hard to notice on the trail. But, I am with you on the rust thing, I hate to see rust as well. Is the stock header stainless, with the stock mid pipe and silencer mild steel?:mad:

I agree re noticing the weight diff on the trail, unless you intend to be competitive in the desrt, then you look for every pound you can lose.

Re the header, the stocker system is all mild steel, including most if not all of the silencer.

Again, many guys see no justification to go to stainless. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

  • philipstjohn

Posted November 05, 2006 - 02:08 PM

#17

Has anyone taken the stock tip, drilled it out, then cut away the "attached baffle" which is just behind the spark arrester?

  • Dezrider

Posted November 05, 2006 - 02:23 PM

#18

A few years ago I replaced the stock exhaust (w/HRC tip) with the WB R-4. I lost some bottom end, but I gained a little more mid-range. One thing I noticed is that first gear is much more useable.

  • philipstjohn

Posted November 05, 2006 - 02:36 PM

#19

Can anyone send me a photo of a drilled out stock tip for the XR650R? I was told on the XR650R I just purchased the stock tip was drilled out, and want to make sure. I have the stock tip in front of me now, and from the chrome tip mounting ring it goes into a spark arrester capped at the end, followed by 1 3/4 extension with open sides and another cap? Does this sound like a drilled out stock tip?

  • eastreich

Posted November 06, 2006 - 09:25 AM

#20

Pictures of a drilled out tip, my stock can modification, lengths of various exhausts...

Drilled out end...

Posted Image

Cut off "baffling" (not necessary if you don't shorten the can)...

Posted Image

Shortened to this internal baffle...

Posted Image

Before welding it back up, I also drilled some holes through the stock baffling to 'improve' the flow pattern of gases to the spark arrestor...

Posted Image

Overall length of modified stock exhaust...

Posted Image

Overall length of FMF Q2...

Posted Image

Overall length of WB R4...

Posted Image

I hope this helps!!





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