Going back to WR timing... YZ timing blows.



30 replies to this topic
  • Dan_Lorenze

Posted December 09, 2001 - 07:30 PM

#1

I just recently changed my timing to YZ spec's. I've ridden thousands of miles with WR timing and just recently decided to change to YZ timing and although the bike rev's out more I feel that I've lost alot of throttle control. I used to be able to wheelie in 4th or 5th gear for a while and now with the new timing I can't control where the front wheel goes. This might seem petty but when I go through a whoop section I like to wheelie through it and with the recent changes I was unable to keep to front wheel down. Im probably the only one that feels this way but I know what I like and I've had the bike set up both ways and I was happier with the bike set up with WR timing...

  • PMAUST

Posted December 09, 2001 - 09:08 PM

#2

Hey Dan, I just finished a great ride with my kids in Johnson Valley. Man what a blast! I haven't riddent the desert in a long time. Way too long! I think you should wait a little while before changing back. Give it a little more time. The only reason I am saying this is because my youngest son rides a YZ400 and he is a hard core desert rider like you. I have the YZ timing on my bike(WR400) with a 12 oz flywheel weight. I felt like my bike performed flawlessly in the desert. We did several very long sections of whoops. I like to wheelie them also. It only makes since. Otherwise, they beat you to death. I am not really making a case one way or the other for YZ timing. Just suggesting that you give it plenty of time before going back. Just so you know for sure. Anyway, we will be doing a SoCal ride again after Christmas. I would really like to hook up and meet you and get Ron to join us. Lets plan something. It will be fun, my kids and you guys.
As long as I can see your dust I can follow you! :)

  • xrracer36

Posted December 10, 2001 - 04:12 AM

#3

finally someone else who sees that YZ timing isn't always best.
1) creates more heat.
2) power not as smooth
3) bike still doesn't have teh ignition curve of a yzf, so it will never run like one till you get the black box changed (which i don't think is possible.)
4) it's a wr... if you want a yzf, buy a yzf.

i recently cut the grey wire, and this was enuff to make me hang on tighter when whacking open the throttle. i have no desire to switch to yz timing, cuz i run too many tight harescrambles where it would be too easy to stall on yz timing. that's one reason they made the wr the way they did. like your bike for what it is, not what it was based off of. it is not a yzf at heart, so don't try and fool yourself. if you wnat a yz, buy a yz. if not, then wuit abusing your yamathumper before i call the child/bike abuse hotline on you. :) :D :D

  • The_Missile

Posted December 10, 2001 - 05:19 AM

#4

Er....xrracer....correct me if I'm wrong...BUT....your signature says

98 wr400f->yzf400

hmmm... am I wrong or did you morph or did you swap ???

  • xrracer36

Posted December 10, 2001 - 06:08 AM

#5

wr400->yzf...
cosmetically and ergonomically...
i have no need for the lights or the fuel capacity of the stock tank,...so i am in the process of converting it to ride more like a yzf, not perform like one.
even the best replica yzf from a wr will never rival a yzf. they don't have the ignition curve, so tehy don't have near the amount of top-end overrevv the yz has. the wr black box will only let it go to like 9800 rpm i think (roughly)... the yzf revs to 1150.
besides... in my post whining about te weight factor, i mentioned being more suited to xr-style power band , so the wr was my choice after riding the yzf. that way i won't endup planting myself into a tree cuz it got away from me.
hey, different strokes for different folks....
some people like modifying their bikes, i prefer running them as close to stock as a high performance standard will let them, cuz i'll take reliability and longevity over an extra 1/2 hp. anyday.
:)

  • SFO

Posted December 10, 2001 - 09:07 AM

#6

The wr ignition shuts down at 10500 rpm.
The yz is 11500.
This is what I noticed on the dyno with a tach.
There is nothing going on up there powerwise, and with a 440cc kit the torque becomes very abundant.
When I first switched to yz timing I didn't like it either, BTW.

  • Blue_Boner

Posted December 10, 2001 - 10:45 PM

#7

Dan, I've been thinking about switching my bike back to WR timing for months. I mainly ride very technical trails with guys on XR400's and XR250's. My bike overheats bigtime every ride. I've tried everything when it comes to cooling. I've got a 1.6 cap, Engine Ice, and the overflow tank. I think the only thing I can do to keep the bike cooler is to switch back to WR timing but I've been scared about power loss. If you can deal with the power of WR timing I think I'm inspired to switch. Eric

  • Scott_in_KC

Posted December 10, 2001 - 12:50 PM

#8

Mine wouldn't do a 4th gear throttle wheelie until I did the YZ timing and that's with YZ pipe & jetting/needle. The increase in power in mid to top is big, but I didn't notice a bit of loss on the bottom. I found the bike less prone to stalling WITH the YZ timing too. I'm fairly new on the bike, so no real habits had been formed either...it's all in what you like. I rode a bunch of tight, rocky stuff at Chadwick MO, just after the timing change and it was flawless everywhere.

...did I mention how fun these bikes are?????

  • Terry_in_Reno

Posted December 10, 2001 - 01:05 PM

#9

Dan,

Me too! I tried the YZ timing when everyone was so jazzed about it. I even gave it 4 months to see if it would grow on me. To be honest, I've found I use 20%-60% of the power band and ride fastest when I short shift the bike, so the WR timing makes better sense for me. If I was riding in the 50%-90% range the YZ timing would make better sense.

Cutting the gray wire made a huge differance, so I'll be staying with that. I just went out a bought a new torque wrench to swith it back to WR timing. I wanted to use a small wrench, which would give more accurate torque measurement. Most only work above 20% of there torque range.

  • Taffy

Posted December 10, 2001 - 02:18 PM

#10

i rode a couple of Wr's with wr timing a fortnight ago and at very low revs i hadn't got anything on them with my own machine.

equal yes but the YZ better no. worse? definately not. i don't think you lads have tried hard enough to jet it right. remember that this bike is just basically a subsidy for yamaha's R & D and it keeps their MX prices down.

first of all an aftermarket pipe will always be aimed at mid and top. bad news. if you only trail and you all run wr timing you have got the standard pipe with or w/o vortip or something akin right? i thought so...

secondly i don't hear any of you talking about your jetting. i think some of you should admit to being not exactly lazy, because i'm sure your busy people, but at least admit that you haven't given it the time it deserved.

this stuff about the different ignition curves? i thought we poo-poo'd that two years ago and last year.

what a shame we don't have anybody here prepared to get their cam timing right or at least to develop it. i don't believe that stuff about the ignition and infact i'll go as far as to say that i know what the problem is and it ain't that.

there's always someone who talks big, i've got the big this and the big that. isn't it a shame you never get any FACTS off of them, you know what i'm saying.

i have no doubt in my mind that the YZ power is pretty hollow. so your right boys, if you want real depth go back. but the wr timing is flat!!

the fact is that someone could have sorted some of this out on his DYNO.

one of the reasons i'm trying another bike (and there are only two) is that it doesn't grunt off the bottom. that could be changed if someone was prepared to try the falicon camwheels and get to grips with timing a bike.

don't any of you boys live close enough to one roadracer who could do your cam timing for you?

they'd teach you as they did it and showed you and then you could try different settings yourselves. do you have to buy everything? isn't there one dealer enthusiast who visits this site who knows enought o have a go?

are you telling me we've got 5,000 ******* members and we can't organise a piss up in a brewery!! jesus H christ. what a sad indictment for us all. i hope there aren't any women reading this or we've had it. correction-we have had it!!!

two months ago we had a big run on WR426 owners, they all hit the ground running, it was like being in the 101st airborne for chrissakes. we had dyno runs coming out of our ears. fifty runs in one night!! i get personal messages from drag team mechanics and in one paragraph they'll mention "top fuel, nitro, turbo, race fuel, 200mph" and then they'll say "but where's the main jet?" i mean come on don't make me cry!!!

this is a self help group and it's becoming a self serving group as in serve only yourself!!

when i'm gone where you gonna get the knowledge? at least clark was a wisened old crow, JD an analytical mad man and taffy an outspoken welsh sheep shagger but at least we got off our fat arses went out tried things and then told you everything.

talking of sheep....

sometimes i can't understand any of you.

shall i tell you something about the P38. when it was first put up about it it was ignored. that's right, it was ignored until the message was over a month old.

one man had found a mod that worked and he was treated like an idiot. does it get any better the longer you've stayed here, perhaps when you've earned some kudos? nope!! not a bit of it. 10 people have to say it's good. but with the lot we've got at the moment where are we going to find 10 people to try anything?

you've got loads of money over there so come on get off your arses and go find something to improve.

starting today go out there and get this cam timing sorted. i'm hopefully selling mine and i along with JD are leaving you with some cracking jetting figures.

get the jetting right and start working on those cams. one good day on the dyno would do it.

has stroker got those two cams ready yet? the torque and the race cam?

if you ever get any good at this i would suggest that you measure a DR400E as it's meant to have the best power curve.

anyway, just thought i'd piss you all off, but remember-it's not personal. i love you all. :)

Taffy

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  • Dan_Lorenze

Posted December 10, 2001 - 03:11 PM

#11

Paul, I would love to take you on a ride someday. I will take your advice and try to get use to it.You're all class my friend. Congrat's on your new bike those 520's are amazing. I'll pray for you that Taffy doesn't buy one. (oops.. did I say that out loud)
Taffy, I've been on here long enough to know you and your attitude on people and their commitment to testing to get perfection. You must understand that we are all not like you. I work way too much to discuss needle tapers and drill bit sizes in my spare time. Im sure that your comments were directed to all of us and our lack of "factual" results but I don't own a dyno and I don't live on a farm where I can test all day. But the days that I do go out I try different set ups to get the best results. My test bench is my "big" fat American A$$. That's plenty good for me. I love that fact that you and JD (gentleman) go back and forth with spec's, it gives us all a good reference to go by but don't expect all of us to follow you. Try not to cry if someone finds a different set up to be better than yours. :) I don't know where the whole "bigger is better" attitude came from but that's a whole other subject...
Scott, My bike (Canadian WR426) came out of a crate as a wheelie machine, I find it really hard to believe that your bike couldn't wheelie before.
xrrider, I DON'T WANT A YZ!!!!!!!!!!! I ALSO DON'T WANT TO MAKE MY WR426 LIKE A YZ426. :D I ride and race at night alot, I need the lighting coil. I race desert alot, I need a the wide ratio tranny too. Don't tell anyone but I love the kickstand (even if it weighs too much). If I wanted a YZ I would have one. I totally agree that leaving things stock is a great idea. But even you have to admit that some mods are worthy. :D

  • Taffy

Posted December 10, 2001 - 03:37 PM

#12

Dan

i agree with a lot of what you've said dan and i understand where you're coming from. there are all kinds of people out there and somebody has to say they could try a bit harder.

i certainly ain't worried about you finding a better set up. good luck to you. look i do what's right as well. but sometimes you've got to make a commitment to find out and there isn't a lot of it at the moment. the cap fits someone!

who's put APJ back on? me!! never thought you'd hear that did you.

i'm telling you that i know that these bikes have got poor cam timing. someone should investigate the timing.

i've got a lot of facts and figures on the stuff. you should know that dan. there's just one point i'd like to reiterate and that is that anybike that has got 22.5 degrees of variability in it's cam timing and can be considered right on both settings has got lot's of room to be perfected.

is it any coincidence that the DR-E is only an enduro? cams made specifically to pull from low? what do we get i wonder?

as i've said dan, i don't disagree that your best out. it's just that there's no fight in anyone.

Taffy

  • Dan_Lorenze

Posted December 10, 2001 - 03:39 PM

#13

Cheers Taffy!! :)

  • Taffy

Posted December 10, 2001 - 04:16 PM

#14

for anyone interested here is the story of the cam timing. apparently there's this bloke called richard and we've had a ******* good stand up, well you know how much i like them!

anyway he's doing it now. to my specs.

http://www.thumperta...c&f=32&t=000351

Taffy

  • aftershock

Posted December 10, 2001 - 05:42 PM

#15

Taffy, I'm glad you got that off your chest :)

  • bonez34

Posted December 10, 2001 - 06:32 PM

#16

i think everyone would agree that a wr with yz timing will out pull a yz. i've done it and so has everyone with a wr i know. start to finish. like taffy said, how on gods green earth can a bike have two timings and them both be the same? 22.5 degrees is a big jump dont you think? especially considering how close the piston to valve clearance is. i thing the wr timing is wrong altogether and was just done for the epa mandations. why two timings for the same engine??? it's killing me!!!

  • SoCalWR426

Posted December 10, 2001 - 07:39 PM

#17

Dan,
I believe that your riding experiance speaks for itself,(but you sure stirred the pot!) Dan know's what's best for Dan. I can very well understand going back to WR. If you recall I just went YZ with your help on jetting last weekend. in the short tryout I had I described the powerband as explosive, I was mentioning to my buddy that I was concerned of losing tractability. I can see myself going back to WR , but 1st I will give the YZ a try-out.
Good Luck..

SoCal.

  • chancer

Posted December 11, 2001 - 01:18 AM

#18

I'm brand new to TT. This discussion intrigued me. I bought a WR400 (99) that has been yz timed. I love this bike, mainly for the suspension. I'm disappointed with the weight though. After a 30 mile loop in the sand, I'm beat. I'm currently working out following the routine on a previous post here. Back to the subject... Went riding with a friend and met up with some other riders. One guy had a 2001 WR 426. We went riding and I had a small get off. Result was a broken clutch lever. (Now have a MSR perch and lever). Everybody rode back to the truck with me to replace the lever. There were also 2 2001 CR 250's. We jump on this fire road about 3 miles from the truck, and blast down this road. Good-bye Honda's. 426 ahead of me and I say, lets see if any difference going side by side and opening up. Yes Martha, there is a difference. I had quicker throttle response. The guy on the 426 tried my bike, and I tryed his. He didn't like the hit of mine, and I missed the hit on his. Long story short, He likes roll on predictive power, and I like the snap. Wow, did I really say anything or just ramble? Hope ya'll can tell I have a sense of humor. I live in NM and ride at a place called Southern. (cause its at the end of Southern road, we're so original here.) I read alot of the posts of people meeting for rides, hope someday to join up for a ride in the SW. I need to get my son up to speed. Graduated from a XR80 to a 2001 KX85. I hope I never get that grin off his face. Be gentle with the reply,s, it's my first time. :)

  • Rocky

Posted December 11, 2001 - 04:45 AM

#19

Definitely many valid points for and against YZ timing. The feel of power delivery and characteristics even though produced by factual mechanical settings is very subjective. Some like the tractor like torque and constant torque and some other like the explosive hit.
Enough philosophy, I tried the YZ timing last month and still am trying to dial in the jetting. Most of my jetting issues are caused be me (changed too many parameters at the same time ---I think!).
There is an absolute/definite improvement from ¼ to ½ throttle. By blipping the throttle in 1st, 2nd, 3rd gears the front end shoots up skyward. My top end is still not dialed in.

Right now I am tempting to go back to WR timing and stop mocking around with the jetting (again, I guess this due to my limitations and lack of time/commitment). But before doing that I have few questions:

1. Are there any short/long term reliability issues with the YZ timed WR?

2. Given the jetting maladies I and some other folks have faced (regardless of skill level) ----- are we trying to hammer a round peg in a square hole?

a. Isn’t YZ ignition mapping different than WR thus affecting timing?
b. Differences in CDI units and the signals it is sending to the TPS?
c. Differences in Pickup coil and it’s signal detection when the timing is changed?

Maybe all of these are irrelevant, but when you look at the level and depth of jetting experimentation by some of WR owners, I am wondering if the root cause of the jetting issues (excluding tuner skill, environment, bike condition) is something else which requires such extensive combination of carburetor setups.

Thanks

[ December 11, 2001: Message edited by: Rocky ]

  • Terry_in_Reno

Posted December 11, 2001 - 07:18 AM

#20

Taft, you crack me up. Well put, we do take it the easiest way over here. That said, I do pride myself in jetting cleanly and feel there is much to be learned on these 4-stroke (I'm a new convert as well). I do take acception to the comment that we don't tell what we have and our results. My signature is always attached and I spent several posts on trying to get the 0-1/8 hesitation resolved. I have it 95% done and only a cracked wrist has hold up my last test (needle in position #4, and maybe back to the #42 PJ). I've also helped those around who wanted it as I learn about the these strokers jetting. I do think your right about the cam timing. The key for me personally is that WR timing is too far retarded which limits the top end, and that YZ timing is to far advanced which limits the bottom end. Not having access to a super shop for cam adjusting, I don't know if I'll go after this. As I said above, I would like to get some lower end power back and I added the power bomb to do that. I know the FMF PC IV is more of an upper end silencer and my switch to a Q pipe at some point, as it creates more back pressure and shifts the band down slightly. Cheers, your the one it took to get the pot boiling.

Rocky, some good points and question. I don't believe the cam timing will cause any long term problems with the motor. The motor is essentially the same as the YZ with the addition of a wide ratio tranny and yes WR ingnition timing. I don't have an answer as to whether the WR ingnition timing really is that big a deal, but EPA was the motivation. The lighting coil is independent of the ignition coil and essentially stand alone (a minor coupling exists, if someone really wants to get into the magnetics theory, I design mangetic coil all day long). The flywheel is something most don't talk about, but several YZr's switch to heavier flywheels for trackability. A WR will always spin up slower for this reason (the lighting coil has some effect here as well).

Just thought I would stir it up some more.

Terry




 
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