stainless oil filter question


12 replies to this topic
  • Derek00

Posted September 30, 2006 - 07:51 PM

#1

Bought a used '03 YZ450F recently. Did the 1st oil change today. When I went to change the oil filter I found that the previous owner had installed a stainless oil filter. It has KN-142 on the side of it. Is this a K&N filter? Do they make oil filters? Do the YZs do OK with these? How do you clean these? Can I use Simple Green, carb cleaner, kerosene? Any help would be appreciated.

  • slammmin72

Posted September 30, 2006 - 08:10 PM

#2

i was just talking to a honda dealer today about them, and he discourages peole form using them...he says that they only stop large rocks and small birds from passing threw them, therefore they dont filter the oil nearly as well as the stock paper ones, also tehy dont help absorb any moisture like a paper one as well. hope this helps, i almost bought one a few nights ago, and now im gald i didnt

  • norcal_hoss

Posted September 30, 2006 - 08:40 PM

#3

Ive used them on all my bikes since1999 when I jumped on the thumper wagon ... Never an issue with them, as long as you clean your air filter on a regular basis (every couple rides) change the oil at the same time and clean the OIL filter at the same time.. Do this regulary and you will have no problems at all. I have a rmz 450 and ive had a SS oil filter in there since my second oil change, before that my hondas had stainless filters and never an issue.. Issues will start when you start riding with dirty air filters and not doing preventive maintnence. :thumbsup:

  • grayracer513

Posted September 30, 2006 - 09:39 PM

#4

i was just talking to a honda dealer today about them, and he discourages peole form using them...he says that they only stop large rocks and small birds from passing threw them, therefore they dont filter the oil nearly as well as the stock paper ones, also tehy dont help absorb any moisture like a paper one as well. hope this helps, i almost bought one a few nights ago, and now im gald i didnt

The first thing wrong here is that the K&N 142 is an OEM replacement filter, and is BRASS mesh, NOT stainless steel. Like the OEM filter they replace, they only filter to about 80 microns, so no, I wouldn't use them, either.

However, if your Honda dealer made that statement about real, top grade SS mesh filters like the Scotts, he's a fool, and you took his advice. A Scotts filter will stop ALL particles larger than 34 microns. Paper filters will stop SOME particles smaller than that, but the trouble is, they only stop some of the particles larger than that, too. A Scotts also flows oil about 4 times better than paper, so the oil filter doesn't go into bypass on cold starts. He was right about one thing, though. The stainless mesh doesn't absorb moisture. Paper filters do, however, and it generally makes them swell and close off so that the bypass valve opens once again. After that, the trapped water will begin breaking down the glue that holds it together. Great huh?

You might want to read through
This Thread, then decide whether your paper filter is such a great deal.

  • Vibeguy

Posted October 01, 2006 - 07:16 AM

#5

The first thing wrong here is that the K&N 142 is an OEM replacement filter, and is BRASS mesh, NOT stainless steel. Like the OEM filter they replace, they only filter to about 80 microns, so no, I wouldn't use them, either.

However, if your Honda dealer made that statement about real, top grade SS mesh filters like the Scotts, he's a fool, and you took his advice. A Scotts filter will stop ALL particles larger than 34 microns. Paper filters will stop SOME particles smaller than that, but the trouble is, they only stop some of the particles larger than that, too. A Scotts also flows oil about 4 times better than paper, so the oil filter doesn't go into bypass on cold starts. He was right about one thing, though. The stainless mesh doesn't absorb moisture. Paper filters do, however, and it generally makes them swell and close off so that the bypass valve opens once again. After that, the trapped water will begin breaking down the glue that holds it together. Great huh?

You might want to read through
This Thread, then decide whether your paper filter is such a great deal.


Grey,

A Scotts filter is rated at 35 microns absolute, that means that it will catch all SPHERICAL objects greater than 34 microns. When was the last time you found a completely spherical object in your oil filter? Most of the wear metal particles found in oil filters are irregular in size and shape. You could have a shard of metal that was 30 microns outside diameter but 80-100 microns long and it is possible for that particle to pass through the Scotts filter.

I think the reason the Scotts filter is rated Absolute is that it would look much worse with a Beta test rating. Still, if you are riding/racing 3-4 days a week and changing your oil often I think the Scotts filter is the way to go.

  • grayracer513

Posted October 01, 2006 - 07:43 AM

#6

Grey,

A Scotts filter is rated at 35 microns absolute, that means that it will catch all SPHERICAL objects greater than 34 microns. When was the last time you found a completely spherical object in your oil filter? Most of the wear metal particles found in oil filters are irregular in size and shape. You could have a shard of metal that was 30 microns outside diameter but 80-100 microns long and it is possible for that particle to pass through the Scotts filter.

I think the reason the Scotts filter is rated Absolute is that it would look much worse with a Beta test rating. Still, if you are riding/racing 3-4 days a week and changing your oil often I think the Scotts filter is the way to go.

The reason they are rated in absolute numbers, rarther than beta is because of the difference in the way mesh screens filter compared to fiber mat media (paper). On the one hand, you could consider the fact that the filter is not rated to stop anything smaller than 35 microns a weakness, or you can consider the fact thatthe absolute rating specifically means it will stop everything larger than 34 a strength.

The reason that paper elements are not rated in absolute values is because the ratings would be unfavorably high. Paper media can and typically does pass debris as large as 100 microns. Not much, but enough that it would fail to get an absolute rating any lower than that.

Remember also that you have not seen a beta rating of a Scotts. In testing filter media for absolute values, it is usually placed at right angles to the oil flow in a sheet. folding it over in pleats changes the dynamic of debris bearing oil flowing through it significantly, and your theoretical 30 x 100 shard would find it diffcult to align itself perpendicularly enough to the media to be able to slip through. I believe you would find it surprising to see how few such particles would actually pass through the Scotts.

Read also:

http://www.thumperta...070#post3621070

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  • Derek00

Posted October 02, 2006 - 05:06 PM

#7

Thanks for the info guys. I had already purchased a new paper filter for the change so I went ahead and put that in since the cover was off. I think I'll toss the K&N and look into the Scotts, that's what I've run in my other bike without problems anyway.

  • TooFast

Posted October 03, 2006 - 08:10 AM

#8

The last time I checked the Scott's ss filter was not tested ....since day one they have been making advertising claims that are not worth diddly squat. Buyer Beware on this one!!!

  • Vibeguy

Posted October 03, 2006 - 08:22 AM

#9

The last time I checked the Scott's ss filter was not tested ....since day one they have been making advertising claims that are not worth diddly squat. Buyer Beware on this one!!!


What do you mean by "not tested" ?

  • Vibeguy

Posted October 03, 2006 - 09:00 AM

#10

Our department performs all maintenance and inspections on a fleet of 150+ gas turbines and their driven equipment, up to 60,000hp. We have a mixed fleet of both aero derivative and industrial GT's. My specific job in this department is oil and vibration analysis and can tell you for a fact that all the "critical" filters on all the units such as lube and hydraulic systems are cloth-resin (refereed to as paper) and filter down to 5 microns on the hydraulic systems and 10 microns on the lube oil systems for both rolling element and journal type bearings.

All our non critical filters such as mechanical seal systems on our pumps are stainless steel mesh and rated at 30-50 microns due to the fact that cooling flow is more important than contamination.

So to make the blanket statement that the stainless steel mesh filters are superior to paper filters is simply not true. Because of this I run a good quality, name brand cloth-resin filter in my bike. If I were riding and racing my 4 stroke 3-4 times a week and changing oil on a weekly basis I'd probably switch over to the Scotts.

A simple lube oil analysis should put this issue to rest. The oil drained from your bike will tell you how your filter is doing. A good analysis will tell you how many of what size particles in your oil have not been captured by the filter.

If someone has a spare Scotts filter for a 06-450 laying around I'll run it for an hour, send the oil to out lab for analysis then send the filter back to you, we can then compare the results with the K&N and Twin Air filters I use. The tests will be done as close as practical to normalize the results.

  • 642MX

Posted October 03, 2006 - 10:33 AM

#11

I've used the K&N 142's since December of 2001 (when I bought my 426). They may not be the best filter, but I haven't had any problems. I'm going to keep using them.

  • grayracer513

Posted October 03, 2006 - 11:04 AM

#12

I've used the K&N 142's since December of 2001 (when I bought my 426). They may not be the best filter, but I haven't had any problems. I'm going to keep using them.

And that's your choice to make. Most people who use paper or OEM brass replacements do so on the basis of economy. Some will buy the brass with the intent of reusing them several times, and that can be done. But note two things: First, that, as I said, they don't filter well at all, and second, that the brass mesh media is far more delicate than the stainless steel. It can be damaged quite easily in cleaning at levels that may not be visible, but can seriously compromise the ability to perform as a filter, opening sections of mesh large enough to allow 100-200 micron particles to pass. They were intended to be single use filters.

Paper does a much better job than the brass, but has the drawbacks I mentioned before. They can be purchased for as little as $2 each, which is certainly tempting. But, I do about 18 oil changes per year per bike or more. At $2 each, that's $36 per year for the filters. The filter in the '03 is 3 1/2 years old, and the one in the 250F is 2 1/2. At that rate, I have spent $130 for two filters that I've gotten 108 oil changes out of, which has saved me $86 dollars in that time, enough to buy the Scotts for my '06 and have $20 left over. That essentially means that I'll never spend a dime for oil filters on the '06.

I use the Scotts because IMO, it's a better filter, but the savings are a nice bonus.

  • bg10459

Posted October 03, 2006 - 12:15 PM

#13

I use a Scotts filter and Rotella T because I change my oil so frequently, which is more important than your choice of filter, IMO. I don't mind throwing away $2 worth of oil every time I ride, but I would never consider going 2 or 3 oil changes on one filter or extending my OCI because I'm trying to get my dollars worth out of it. At $2 to $6 for a filter and possibly $10 for a quart of oil, I can understand why you might be inclined to stretch it.





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