Need your help...


11 replies to this topic
  • rmhrc630

Posted August 30, 2006 - 12:11 PM

#1

I am fitting electric start to my XR600R (2000 model)

All parts are fitted and the electric start turns motor over perfectly.


Problem:

When you push the starter button, the motor turns over but there is NO SPARK across the spark plug!!! I therefore cant start the engine on estarter!!!


BUT when you handcrank the engine with the kickstarter there is a bright blue beautiful spark. So even handcranking the engine with the kickstarter makes a great spark and the engine fires up and runs perfect. So the engine is running and sits there and idles perfect.

What can I do to get the spark happening?

What tests can I run?

(at the moment the main test is the spark plug sitting outside the engine with the coil attached and then I push either the starter button or handcrack the engine.

Please help!!!

RMHRC

  • bigdanner

Posted August 30, 2006 - 03:24 PM

#2

If the motor is turning over you should get spark. Especially if you get spark when cranking it manually. The only reason your spark would be interrupted with the e-start is if your starter button is somehow connected to the black/white kill wire and grounding the spark. In this case you would be completing the circuit to the e-start and at the same time grounding the CDI ignition pulse to ground. Basically like holding down the kill button while holding down the start button.
Just a thought...........

  • rmhrc630

Posted August 30, 2006 - 03:30 PM

#3

If the motor is turning over you should get spark. Especially if you get spark when cranking it manually. The only reason your spark would be interrupted with the e-start is if your starter button is somehow connected to the black/white kill wire and grounding the spark. In this case you would be completing the circuit to the e-start and at the same time grounding the CDI ignition pulse to ground. Basically like holding down the kill button while holding down the start button.
Just a thought...........


Thats what I wanted to hear!! Thank you.

I have a new update from the newly rewound coils this morning - I'm getting 50 volts AC on button starting (up from 20-25 2 weeks ago) and still NO spark at the plug!!

So I am getting massive voltage - enoght to start but no spark using the button.

Kicker is making big voltage too and great spark still.

Will keep trying - think you're right the button is an issue here.

  • bigdanner

Posted August 30, 2006 - 03:42 PM

#4

You should be able to trace the starter circuit pretty easily. From the battery you have power to the starter solenoid and the starter button. When you push the button the power is applied to the solenoid and the relay sends power directly to the starter motor. The battery and relay will both have to be grounded to the chassis as well.
Make sure you aren't using any of the stock wiring as a ground. This will eliminate any possibility of connecting to the wrong wires.
Oh yeah, and good luck!

  • rmhrc630

Posted August 30, 2006 - 03:53 PM

#5

Thank you Bigdanner!!!

1. We'll try a direct linkage to the starter, avoiding the starter button.

2. The electrical guy said that quite possibly it's the air gap on the pulsar coil and that reducing the gap will create spark???

  • qadsan

Posted August 30, 2006 - 08:37 PM

#6

If you're able to start the bike with the kick starter, then it tells me that your pickup, its gap and the associated wiring to the CDI is good. If it works from the kick starter, then it should also work from an e-starter. If you have access to a scope, all you need to do is make sure you're getting an input to the CDI from the MPU (magnetic pick up) and have another channel watching the output. If you're getting an input that looks normal, then the issue lies either with the CDI or something in the e-start kit or your wiring is killing the input to the CDI.

Here's something to try. You've already checked for spark when kicking the engine over, but I'll bet you were turning the engine over at a normal speeds while kicking the lever. Now try this same test, but kick the engine over slowly. Do you still get spark when kicking the engine over slowly?

If you do not get spark when kicking the engine over slowly, then your CDI is filtering the input signal and needs the engine to spin at a minimum RPM before it pulses the ignition coil. If this ends up being the case, then you'll need to either spin the engine faster or get an aftermarket CDI that will trigger the ignition coil at lower engine speeds. It could be as simple as your starter isn't getting enough juice to turn the engine over quick enough.

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  • rmhrc630

Posted August 30, 2006 - 09:55 PM

#7

If you're able to start the bike with the kick starter, then it tells me that your pickup, its gap and the associated wiring to the CDI is good. If it works from the kick starter, then it should also work from an e-starter. If you have access to a scope, all you need to do is make sure you're getting an input to the CDI from the MPU (magnetic pick up) and have another channel watching the output. If you're getting an input that looks normal, then the issue lies either with the CDI or something in the e-start kit or your wiring is killing the input to the CDI.

Here's something to try. You've already checked for spark when kicking the engine over, but I'll bet you were turning the engine over at a normal speeds while kicking the lever. Now try this same test, but kick the engine over slowly. Do you still get spark when kicking the engine over slowly?

If you do not get spark when kicking the engine over slowly, then your CDI is filtering the input signal and needs the engine to spin at a minimum RPM before it pulses the ignition coil. If this ends up being the case, then you'll need to either spin the engine faster or get an aftermarket CDI that will trigger the ignition coil at lower engine speeds. It could be as simple as your starter isn't getting enough juice to turn the engine over quick enough.


Thanks Qadsan!!!

Latest update

Moved the pulse coil closer - made NO difference whatsoever!!! Dammm!!!

Just to repeat:

1. On slow handcranking the kickstarter (because the bike in on the stand) I get massive strong blue spark - this is handcranking it pushing the kickstarter down with my hand.

2. Using the button makes nada not once once of spark. Even when the air gap was reduced to 1/10000th of an inch (ie virtually rubbing) the bike made no spark.

It's got to be the wiring.

But my mechanic did a direct hook up of the solenoid to the batter (thus avoiding the switch) and still nothing!!!

Damm this bike must run with an estarter!!!

Where is my spark going Gadsan???

RMHRC

  • qadsan

Posted August 31, 2006 - 06:08 PM

#8

Where is my spark going Gadsan???

Do you know anyone with a scope? If so, then look at the waveform from the output of the magnetic pickup sensor when cranking it by hand. Now look at the output when cranking by e-start. If they're the same, then you move up the line. If by chance there's lots of noise in the MPU signal when cranking by estart and the signal is clean when cranking by hand, then you you need to figure out what's causing the noise (i.e. bad ground, starter, etc).

Look at this same signal as it enters the CDI. It should look exactly the same as it was off the MPU. If it's not, then you've got an issue in the wiring between the MPU and the CDI.

If everything looks good up to this point, then about the only things left are the output pulse from the CDI to fire the coil and the signal from the coil to the spark plug. Compare the outputs from cranking the bike by hand and from the estart to see if they look the same or if they differ.

Or just bring the bike over to my place and I'll scope it out for you if you bring the Tooheys :thumbsup:

  • rmhrc630

Posted August 31, 2006 - 06:33 PM

#9

If everything looks good up to this point, then about the only things left are the output pulse from the CDI to fire the coil and the signal from the coil to the spark plug. Compare the outputs from cranking the bike by hand and from the estart to see if they look the same or if they differ.

Or just bring the bike over to my place and I'll scope it out for you if you bring the Tooheys :thumbsup:


Tooheys - you're a NSWelshman??? (I'm from Victoria and Vic Bitter is our beer down here - there's a real beer rivalry between Victorian and New South Wales!!!!

A scope has been suggested Qadsan - at the moment the electrical guru is sending a "peak voltage tester" to the mechanic so he can give some readings.

He reckons that the issue is the starter motor is not turning the engine over fast enough to generate spark - he reckons there is a min threshold at which point the CDI opens up and allows the spark to flow across the spark plug.


I swear that on hand cranking the kickstarter versus pushing the button I cant tell a massive difference but the electrical guru says even 50rpm difference might be enough to mean no spark gets allowed through the gate.

Correct me if I am wrong ( i have learnt alot about electrics over the past 2 days) but your CDI has a threshold that it must get before it reaches a sparking level.

Therefore in my case it is being suggested that even handcranking the kickstarter generates enough ooomph in the motor to trigger the CDI and allow spark - ie it's an all or nothing type result.

I would have imagined that the button starter turns the motor over quiet well - I have a 130CCA battery brand new that sounds all good.

Do you know Qadsan what the relative starting RPMS are for say the 650R with electric start v the kickstarter?

For example are we talking estarter makes 300rpm v 600rpm for the kickstarter?

I think I have eleiminated all other areas now - the wiring I have been assured is spot on and the starter switch is not killing my spark. (otherwise my bike wouldnt run when kickstarterted would it?)

  • qadsan

Posted August 31, 2006 - 08:40 PM

#10

Tooheys - you're a NSWelshman??? (I'm from Victoria and Vic Bitter is our beer down here - there's a real beer rivalry between Victorian and New South Wales!!!!

Nahhh, I'm just a former beerman who liked drinking beer when I used to travel to Oz, Euro, Spain, Brazil, Singapore, etc. The trips to Belgium, Germany, Holland, Netherlands, etc, were the best (lots of different beers!). At least once a year for ~10 years or so (many years ago), various companies in Oz would hire my engieering or troubleshooting services for critical intermittent problems that weren't getting resolved through normal channels. I used to do a bit of work for Hermes Precisa, Woolies, various mining companies, various manufacturing plants, etc, but I always looked forward to those trips because of the fantastic food & beer. I especially loved the surf clubs, the gambling, the outback, etc. And my wife always loved the firey Opals that would come home with me. I hated the flight over there and back, but I always got to spend a good 3 to 6 weeks there each trip. I miss the days of traveling there or anywhere for that matter, but one of these years when my kids have finished college, I've got to get back over there for some :applause: fun

He reckons that the issue is the starter motor is not turning the engine over fast enough to generate spark - he reckons there is a min threshold at which point the CDI opens up and allows the spark to flow across the spark plug.

That would be one of my my guesses as well (mentiond above).

I swear that on hand cranking the kickstarter versus pushing the button I cant tell a massive difference but the electrical guru says even 50rpm difference might be enough to mean no spark gets allowed through the gate.

Correct me if I am wrong ( i have learnt alot about electrics over the past 2 days) but your CDI has a threshold that it must get before it reaches a sparking level.

The CDI's that I've seen in the past do look for specific conditions to be met before firing the coil. From what I recall (and it's been a long while), the threashold for the XR650R CDI is different than the XR400 & XR600 CDI's, but I don't recall the specifics. I think the engine has to spin at 900+ RPM in order to 'reliably' process the MPU pulse to fire the coil. That's one of several reasons why turning up the idle speed on some bikes helps out because if the engine speed momentarily drops (which is common on a cold engine when fuel is sticking to the cylinder walls instead of atomizing as it does in a warm engine), then the CDI may not pass the pulse from the MPU to fire the coil. If the engine idle speed is set too close to this threashold, then the chances of the engine stalling will increase.

Do you know Qadsan what the relative starting RPMS are for say the 650R with electric start v the kickstarter?
For example are we talking estarter makes 300rpm v 600rpm for the kickstarter?

I don't recall, but it could be calculated and or instrumented. I believe the kick starter is capable of spinning the engine past 1,000 RPM, but I don't recall the number for certain. I do recall working with an XR400 that had an estart kit installed and the stock CDI would not pass the ignition pulse because the engine wasn't being spun fast enough with the estart. We ended up using an aftermarket CDI that would pass the ignition pulse from a lower engine RPM and that did the trick.

I think I have eleiminated all other areas now - the wiring I have been assured is spot on and the starter switch is not killing my spark. (otherwise my bike wouldnt run when kickstarterted would it?)

Sounds like you've narrowed it down to just a few things and that the wiring is definitely good. That's quite a project you've figured out and put together. Very impressive :thumbsup:

  • rmhrc630

Posted August 31, 2006 - 09:05 PM

#11

Nahhh, I'm just a former beerman who liked drinking beer when I used to travel to Oz, Euro, Spain, Brazil, Singapore, etc. The trips to Belgium, Germany, Holland, Netherlands, etc, were the best (lots of different beers!). At least once a year for ~10 years or so (many years ago), various companies in Oz would hire my engieering or troubleshooting services for critical intermittent problems that weren't getting resolved through normal channels. I used to do a bit of work for Hermes Precisa, Woolies, various mining companies, various manufacturing plants, etc, but I always looked forward to those trips because of the fantastic food & beer. I especially loved the surf clubs, the gambling, the outback, etc. And my wife always loved the firey Opals that would come home with me. I hated the flight over there and back, but I always got to spend a good 3 to 6 weeks there each trip. I miss the days of traveling there or anywhere for that matter, but one of these years when my kids have finished college, I've got to get back over there for some :applause: fun


That would be one of my my guesses as well (mentiond above).


The CDI's that I've seen in the past do look for specific conditions to be met before firing the coil. From what I recall (and it's been a long while), the threashold for the XR650R CDI is different than the XR400 & XR600 CDI's, but I don't recall the specifics. I think the engine has to spin at 900+ RPM in order to 'reliably' process the MPU pulse to fire the coil. That's one of several reasons why turning up the idle speed on some bikes helps out because if the engine speed momentarily drops (which is common on a cold engine when fuel is sticking to the cylinder walls instead of atomizing as it does in a warm engine), then the CDI may not pass the pulse from the MPU to fire the coil. If the engine idle speed is set too close to this threashold, then the chances of the engine stalling will increase.


I don't recall, but it could be calculated and or instrumented. I believe the kick starter is capable of spinning the engine past 1,000 RPM, but I don't recall the number for certain. I do recall working with an XR400 that had an estart kit installed and the stock CDI would not pass the ignition pulse because the engine wasn't being spun fast enough with the estart. We ended up using an aftermarket CDI that would pass the ignition pulse from a lower engine RPM and that did the trick.


Sounds like you've narrowed it down to just a few things and that the wiring is definitely good. That's quite a project you've figured out and put together. Very impressive :thumbsup:



Qadsan

I have the solution finally!!!

I have to use a 650L CDI and have it wired for the 600R (which beleive it or not is possible)

So no amount of jigging with the pulse coil was going to trigger the XR600CDI.

What I need to do is use the 650L CDI which triggers at only 12 volts - XR600 being a kick only bike doesnt get out of bed below 60-90 volts.


Therefore...I have to use a 650L CDI (which beleive it or not only costs me $120 Aussie) and have it wired to my XR600 with a special wire going from starter button to the battery and then to the CDI - telling to to fire up and allow spark.

The 650L CDI works at much lower voltages that the XR600.

It''ll be about 2 weeks but by the time I'm finsihed I'll have the worlds only oem XR628 HRC engine with electric start!!!

http://i26.photobuck...k2/138_3876.jpg

All I'll say is thank god for the intercompatibility of Honda Parts.

I will will criticise Honda however for fffing well never making a electric start XR400, 600 or 650 ® version.

Thanks for your help Qadsan really appreciate it.

Yes it is a long trip down here - I just came back from Europe - it's a 24 hr flight which is terrible!!!

  • Alden

Posted September 27, 2006 - 12:50 PM

#12

RMHRC630 ................

How many and what color wires were connected to your original 2000 XR600R CDI?





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