Oil Filter completely full of mud



29 replies to this topic
  • SurvivorMan

Posted August 29, 2006 - 03:31 PM

#1

I have an 06 450 and I some how sucked mud into the oil stream and completely jammed the scott's stainless oil filter full of mud, so bad that you couldn't even see into the ribs of the filter. The oil pump was sucking so hard that it sucked in the filter like an hour glass and twisted it! Holy crap! Imagine if I had a paper filter. I use an expensive motul synthetic oil and change it with the filter often (probably every 10-15 hours on bike). I had actually just changed the oil a week before this last ride and after going through a large truck mud hole, by accident, the valves got loud, the clutch was getting really grabby and just general noise, so I headed straight for the truck. The bike still starts and runs, it was just starving for oil. So I changed the oil out, which wasn't white and cleaned the scott's filter as best I could and tryed to straighten it as well. I think the scott's filter will still work because it suctions in on itself, but I hope I didn't wreck my bike. What should I do? and how the heck did I suck that much dirt into the oil passage? I have ridden the bike lots in muddy conditions, ridden through mud holes and muskeg, ridden through deep rivers and nothing has ever been a problem?? The vent hose off of the top is all I can think of, it must create a suction when the throttle is chopped?! :thumbsup:

  • grayracer513

Posted August 29, 2006 - 04:05 PM

#2

Well, this sounds ugly. First, understand that the oil pump does not suck through the filter, it pumps through it. I does, however suck through the frame screen, which you need to check for contamination.

The next issue is, are you sure that it's mud? I ask that because what it could be is the result of engine coolant having gotten into the oil, which can, depending on the oil base and the coolant used, dissolve the resins that hold clutch linings together. The mixture of oil, coolant and clutch plates llooks a lot like some kind of deadly swamp slime.

Now, it could have been thin, watery mud, if you stalled and/or tried to restart the engine with the breather tube submerged in that kind of soup. The piston pumps 450cc on the bottom as well as on the top, so it creates a vacuum on the upstroke. When it's running, the vacuum reverses to a positive pressure and back so quickly that it doesn't have a chance to draw much up into the engine, but at cranking speeds, it does, and there have been a number of cases of the breather drawing water and other stuff into the engine this way.

Whatever was in there, open up the clutch and check the plates. Check the cooling system for oiliness or lost coolant that would indicate a head gasket problem. Drain, flush, and re-drain the oil tank and crankcases until you are certain the junk is gone. It would also be wise to pull the cams to check the condition of the journals and the bearing surfaces in the head.

One more question. The Scotts filter should have opened the bypass valve instead of being crushed. Was there so much stuff piled around the base of the filter that the valve may have been blocked off?

  • Ga426owner

Posted August 29, 2006 - 04:25 PM

#3

I have done this on a 2002 WR426 : :applause:
The same exact thing...
you have 2 options: 1st tear it all down and clean it rebuild it
or try this -

first check the clutch and clean out all the mess in the clutch plates, basket etc...
then get some Marvel Mystery Oil (not too much at a time)to dissapate as much moisture in the motor and use some cheap oil and change it after riding for 15min the first time....30min the second time and after 1 hr of riding.....you will keep getting dirt and crap out - it takes several times to flush it
Check the head for any dirt build up and clean valve train and recheck the clutch plates and clean

after this go back to the normal - 3-4 hrs of riding between oil changes and check for strange noises - mine was fine..... :thumbsup:
sounds like you were not riding for any extended time after you flooded the motor....and reroute the breather if you continue to submarine ride...... :applause:

  • grayracer513

Posted August 29, 2006 - 04:41 PM

#4

Marvel oil works well for the purpose, but it is almost nothing but over-priced ATF, at least in the role of an engine flush. If you want a good flushing mixture, run it on 50/50 engine oil and Dexron III transmission fluid for 10 minutes or so then drain and refill with oil, run it some more then drain and refill again with oil, changing or cleaning the filter each time.

DO NOT put the engine under any heavy loads or rev past about halfway up with the flushing oil in it. The object is to circulate the flushing oil without grinding any of the crud in the engine into anything else.

Obviously, flushing rather than a tear down carries the risk of guessing wrong, but depending on what you find in the top end and clutch, it can work.

  • SurvivorMan

Posted August 29, 2006 - 07:47 PM

#5

Thank you guys, that helps alot. I was starting to wounder if it was my clutch and almost took the clutch apart tonight. I have been flushing out the bike all evening. I put in one litre after draing and ride for 5-10 mins and then drain oil and check filter, then refill and do over 4 times. After I put in a fresh yamaha filter, everytime after when I checked the filter, it was just grey, no chunks or material, so I just kept putting it back in. The oil just kept coming out grey, no material though. The bike fires up first kick, idles well and is responsive on the bottom. The coolant level has not moved and is normal coloring. There is just more noise down there, clutch whining I think. So thats what probably happened then? Did I suck in dirty water from the large mud hole into the engine? I do not intentionally aim for truck holes, especially ones like this, it's just that when you are given er in 4th gear with your buddies on a large jeep trail, monster truck holes come up out of no where. I brake slid into the hole, then cut the engine and tipped slightly to the left side, but never actually fell. Then we pulled the bike out of the mud hole, then started it up once out. I will check and clean out clutch tomorrow and then check valves and the cam journals too.
Gray, what is the bi pass valve? I was surprised that the Scott's was sucked in and twisted and if this can happen with the breather tube, why would Yamaha put it so down low? where's a good place to put it? I remember reading a thread about putting it into your air box with some foam on the end of it. But then you have hot air and some oil coming into your air box.

  • SurvivorMan

Posted August 30, 2006 - 07:43 AM

#6

Where are the frame screens? I did not know about these.

  • grayracer513

Posted August 30, 2006 - 09:06 AM

#7

Gray, what is the bi pass valve? I was surprised that the Scott's was sucked in and twisted and if this can happen with the breather tube, why would Yamaha put it so down low? where's a good place to put it? I remember reading a thread about putting it into your air box with some foam on the end of it. But then you have hot air and some oil coming into your air box....

Where are the frame screens? I did not know about these.

Sorry about the frame screen reference. That has to do with the earlier models that used the frame for an oil tank. On the '06, the tank is integrated into the engine, and it doesn't appear that there's a screen between the reservoir and the pump. If there is, it's internal anyway.

The bypass valve is on the inboard end of the filter. In an OEM type, it's a simple spring loaded metal plate. On a Scotts, it's a more durable check ball. The idea is that if the pressure difference between the outside of the filter, where the oil comes from, and the inside, where it's going, is too great, either because the filter is blocked, or because the oil is cold and thick, the pressure will push the bypass open and oil will continue to reach the important engine parts it is directed to. That's why I asked if the filter well was packed with crud around the base of the filter.

The breather tube is placed as it is because for most applications an MX bike might be put to, there's no problem with it. For the more serious enduro type offroad uses, though, it's prudent to move the end of it to the air box. The best setup, IMO, is to run it rearward from the head and down past the air boot to a point off to the left of the rear wheel (the brake is on the right). Then, at a point near the front of the sub frame, put a T in the line and run that to the air box. That way, most of the drooled oil will still be dropped on the ground, rather than around your air filter, and yet with the second open end on the hose, it can never generate enough vacuum on the down hose to pull anything up.

  • Ga426owner

Posted August 30, 2006 - 10:55 AM

#8

Marvel oil works well for the purpose, but it is almost nothing but over-priced ATF, at least in the role of an engine flush. If you want a good flushing mixture, run it on 50/50 engine oil and Dexron III transmission fluid for 10 minutes or so then drain and refill with oil, run it some more then drain and refill again with oil, changing or cleaning the filter each time.

DO NOT put the engine under any heavy loads or rev past about halfway up with the flushing oil in it. The object is to circulate the flushing oil without grinding any of the crud in the engine into anything else.

Obviously, flushing rather than a tear down carries the risk of guessing wrong, but depending on what you find in the top end and clutch, it can work.



good points Greyracer

  • Ga426owner

Posted August 30, 2006 - 10:57 AM

#9

Thank you guys, that helps alot. I was starting to wounder if it was my clutch and almost took the clutch apart tonight. I have been flushing out the bike all evening. I put in one litre after draing and ride for 5-10 mins and then drain oil and check filter, then refill and do over 4 times. After I put in a fresh yamaha filter, everytime after when I checked the filter, it was just grey, no chunks or material, so I just kept putting it back in. The oil just kept coming out grey, no material though. The bike fires up first kick, idles well and is responsive on the bottom. The coolant level has not moved and is normal coloring. There is just more noise down there, clutch whining I think. So thats what probably happened then? Did I suck in dirty water from the large mud hole into the engine? I do not intentionally aim for truck holes, especially ones like this, it's just that when you are given er in 4th gear with your buddies on a large jeep trail, monster truck holes come up out of no where. I brake slid into the hole, then cut the engine and tipped slightly to the left side, but never actually fell. Then we pulled the bike out of the mud hole, then started it up once out. I will check and clean out clutch tomorrow and then check valves and the cam journals too.
Gray, what is the bi pass valve? I was surprised that the Scott's was sucked in and twisted and if this can happen with the breather tube, why would Yamaha put it so down low? where's a good place to put it? I remember reading a thread about putting it into your air box with some foam on the end of it. But then you have hot air and some oil coming into your air box.



When I did it to my 02 WR...all I did was kick it over while in a water puddle....never again.

  • Budlite

Posted August 30, 2006 - 10:59 AM

#10

Grayracer513:
Have you tried an old style PCV valve such as the ones on the old GTO's (circa 1967) as a cure for the line problem. I haven't tried one since we only race MX but it would seem to me that it might be a simple solution. It's nothing more that a one way check valve that would let the exhaust pressure out but stop the water from coming in...just a thought

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  • SureBlue

Posted August 30, 2006 - 11:18 AM

#11

Alberta, I'm sorry to hear what happened to your bike, hope no major damage was done. Reroute the breather tube. I have total peace of mind with mine
http://www.thumperta...hlight=breather

  • SurvivorMan

Posted August 30, 2006 - 01:57 PM

#12

Thanks for the pics blue, those will help.
I don't think I did too mutch damage, except for starving the engine for oil during about 1 1/2 hours of riding. Now I just need to flush the engine with the ATF a few times after cleaning my clutch out. I have pulled the clutch out already and the plates aren't worn too bad.

  • grayracer513

Posted August 30, 2006 - 02:28 PM

#13

Grayracer513:
Have you tried an old style PCV valve such as the ones on the old GTO's (circa 1967) as a cure for the line problem. I haven't tried one since we only race MX but it would seem to me that it might be a simple solution. It's nothing more that a one way check valve that would let the exhaust pressure out but stop the water from coming in...just a thought

You wouldn't want a one way check. Although it isn't too likely, you cannot allow an abnormally high vacuum to form in the crank case, which, if you used a check to prevent air coming in, could theoretically occur. The effect would be to suck dirt through seals and pull gaskets out of place. A 'T' in the line solves the problem quite neatly, and is something like what the XR's have been doing for many years.

  • DaveJ

Posted August 30, 2006 - 02:37 PM

#14

Your bike also has a screen at the bottom of the oil pump.

STRAINER, OIL
5BE-13411-00-00

  • grayracer513

Posted August 30, 2006 - 02:39 PM

#15

That would be the return pump screen I mentioned.

  • YAMAKAZE

Posted August 31, 2006 - 04:07 AM

#16

[/quote]I have done this on a 2002 WR426 :
The same exact thing...[quote]

I remember that. It was pretty funny at the time.....

Bill

  • Ga426owner

Posted August 31, 2006 - 01:24 PM

#17

I have done this on a 2002 WR426 :
The same exact thing...


I remember that. It was pretty funny at the time.....

Bill


Your back.......man what a hiatus you have been on..........

  • SurvivorMan

Posted August 31, 2006 - 02:39 PM

#18

After thoroughly cleaning the clutch, then flushing Dexron 3 ATF mixed with 10w30, the oil is now coming out pretty clean. The engine runs nice and quiet again except for some clutch noise still. I have a cross country race this weekend so we will see if the engine holds together.
The bike really has no symptons anymore, starts fine, no valve clicking, good bottom end response, coolant remains constant.....tough Yami!!

  • BergArabia

Posted September 01, 2006 - 01:50 AM

#19

sounds like a good result, Alberta.
Good luck in the race. :thumbsup:

  • SurvivorMan

Posted September 05, 2006 - 12:30 PM

#20

Well, the race was great. But I only made it 90 km's out of 120 because my clutch is done. I had to push up and over the last 4 hills. I finally came upon a river, pulled over and took off all my gear and cooled off!! That was it for me and now it's time to pull apart my bike. Still noisey, now it's blowing out smoke (burning oil) and the clutch is toast. I only hope the bottom end is not wrecked. What do I look for? I have never pulled apart a thumper, only lots of 2 stroke top ends. I will check cams, journals, the valves and valve seats, the piston, rings and cylinder I guess. I won't be rding for a couple of weeks I figure. I do want to rebuilt the bike properly and get 4 months hard riding out of it. Thanks





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