Steel Framed Purists Unite!...A bit of an editorial


139 replies to this topic
  • RichBaker

Posted July 06, 2006 - 08:09 PM


The one thing noone has mentioned is Fatigue....Al fatigues and cracks a whole lot sooner than CroMo does. For those of us that don't buy a new bike every couple years, that is important! My previous bike was a1990 YZ250WRA, I rode that beast for 13 years, and it still runs decent, no cracks in the original frame and wheels...can an Al-framed bike do the same? I doubt it...which is WHY I prefer steel!

  • Anravqsuh

Posted July 06, 2006 - 08:47 PM


Save your money! Titanium-Magnesium-Alloy-Carbon Fiber frames are the way to go!! Mark my words, it's the future. :ride:

It'll take a bit more than Aluminum to get me to trade in my '02. :ride:

  • Ripmeister

Posted July 07, 2006 - 01:32 PM


Do a search...look your self....look it up in your manual.... I have heard it all here in the past six months. So
Why does it seem that when ever I am curious about my new Yamaha's something or other and do the TT search, it's says it's busy and to come back later?
Well, I have !@#$%&* parts all over the !@#$%&* damn floor and I need to KNOW NOW! Thats why I post questions that people have seen before time and again, get tired of reading them - sorry!
Thank you to all who have responded with kind helpful advise in the past.
You are the one's who make the difference here, again thank you.



The point of TT is to talk and enjoy the community. That second 'T' is, after all, "Talk." I'll search, sure, but it's nice to get updated responses or just banter. DIY is hard enough without doing it all alone with no one to bounce things off of. If you're tired of seeing the same tired old threads over and over again, well, just go to another one. OR, dare I say it, spend less time on TT. :ride:

I guess it's a changing of the guard. When all the old guys get sick of the new guys, they'll fade away and do something else, or they'll remember what it's like to get started in this and remain a part of the community.

Where I'm 100% in agreement though is with the "Kiss My A$$ old man" crowd. People will say and do things on a forum that they wouldn't dare say or do in person. Most places would be better off without them, TT included.

  • Just034

Posted July 07, 2006 - 06:51 PM


The one thing noone has mentioned is Fatigue....Al fatigues and cracks a whole lot sooner than CroMo does. For those of us that don't buy a new bike every couple years, that is important! My previous bike was a1990 YZ250WRA, I rode that beast for 13 years, and it still runs decent, no cracks in the original frame and wheels...can an Al-framed bike do the same? I doubt it...which is WHY I prefer steel!



"There are a hell of a lot of comercial and private airliners flying millions of miles made of aluminum. BTW my last flight I was noticing how the engineers sure designed the wings with a tremendous amount of flex ability OUT OF ALUMINUM"

  • RichBaker

Posted July 07, 2006 - 09:08 PM


And how many times have airplane fleets been grounded due to cracks found in one or two airframes? Did you hear about the airtanker that crashed last year fighting a fire -because the wings (yes, both of them...) FELL OFF?! Lots more examples, but FATIGUE is the culprit. And then there's the matter of repairing said cracks...with CroMo it's easy to weld up, Al takes more $$ and ability...

  • CISCO

Posted July 08, 2006 - 06:08 AM


You guys crack me up. Ive worked on the most flapped out high mileage, ridden to the moon and back AL frame bikes, and the last F-ing problem any of them have is frame fatigue. People get real. The frames add a level of rigidity that is helpful to the performance of the motorcycle. This is softened up by larger forks/shocks, and the ride tends to be plush yet responsive. To boot the oil tanks on the Yamis is lowered, not by 10 MM but by FEET! Thats less metal and less fluid contained up front and up high.

The new WR.....WILL be a huge improvement over the prvious design. How could I know this?? NOBODY has ridden one!!

Because it is modeled after the YZ which, beyond a lazy steering angle, is the best 4 stroke MX bike Ive ever ridden.....and Ive ridden ALOT of bikes. What makes it superior to previous models is the frame and suspension....CHASIS.

Of course we all have our likes and dislikes and I love all bikes and would not buy one or another just because of the alloy used in chassis design. What I look for is what the chassis design DOES FOR THE MOTORCYCLE! Sure yamaha could have designed this frame around cromo and its results would have been similar.
What do I like about AL? No rust. Cleans up with scotch brite and brake clean. Rigidity.

And BTW whos has an AL frame bike witha crack in the frame that you know of? How many more of those are there than cracked cromo frames of same current year? .......................mmmm hmmm. :ride:

Ok off the soap box havaniceday :ride:

  • ncmountainman

Posted July 08, 2006 - 06:33 AM


hey steve,just saw this and gotta say it makes for some fine entertainment. things get a little slow...stir the pot :ride: as a proud owner of a 15 yr old boy i definately feel your pain about this lackluster generation we have developed,oh well once all the old f'ers die they'll be sitting around with their thumbs up their behinds wondering why they didn't take more initiative in life.....but anyways,i'll stick with the steel frames because my big arse would destroy a metal that has no forgiving properties :ride:

  • notime

Posted July 08, 2006 - 10:05 AM


And how many times have airplane fleets been grounded due to cracks found in one or two airframes? Did you hear about the airtanker that crashed last year fighting a fire -because the wings (yes, both of them...) FELL OFF?! Lots more examples, but FATIGUE is the culprit. And then there's the matter of repairing said cracks...with CroMo it's easy to weld up, Al takes more $$ and ability...


Aluminum aircraft parts and motorcycle frames are as comparable as eating a porterhouse steak and the hoof the cow stands on... hey they both made of cow! Why?

Aircraft are subject to repeated G loads in flight and on landing for thousands of hours. Like 10,000 to 65,000 hours or more of flight time. For those of you without a calculator handy, there are 8,760 hours in a year. All this time occurs in environmental conditions which can start out at 115+degrees F on the tarmack and 25 minutes later be at -50 degrees F in cruise. The Boeing 747 has a max takeoff weight of over 800,000 lbs. Transport aircraft have to be certified to something around 5 G's ultimate load factor (it breaks). So if we are conservative, and use a factor of 4 G's, the wing on the 747 generates/ is subject to, that ALUMINUM wing spar can only support 4,000,000 lbs.

Airplane wings are designed to flex so you get the snot beaten out of you in turbulence.

The fire fighting aircraft that have crashed in the last few years all were built half way back in the last century- 40's, 50's, and maybe early 60's. The newest one that crashed was at least 40 years old. They were operating in an extremely severe environment they were not designed for by the lowest bidder to the U.S. Forest Service. Maintenance may been a low priority. But hey, at least the Forest Service uses all that money it saves for all the ohv trails!

So what's my point? Who cares? Not me. I just had some time and thought I'd throw in a fact or two. Just go ride and have fun.

You guys have the most entertaining strings. Thanks.


Oh yeah... where's that avgas forum?

  • MountainMax

Posted July 08, 2006 - 10:17 AM


well im a skeptic also, but if it worked fine on last years YZ, it may be ok or better on our WR's also......time will tell i guess, a lot of people are against change however.

  • CharlesFP

Posted July 08, 2006 - 10:50 AM


Nobody's better at stirring up controversy than Clark.

I was somewhat skeptical about AL, until I rode my friend's 06. He's an A class rider and he's owned practically every bike ever manufactured, and he claims that it is by far the best bike he's ever owned. If the new WR is anything like that bike, I'll be 7 grand poorer very soon.

Maybe Yamaha could have achieved the same results by building a totally new, redisigned steel frame, but that would have been bad business. Yami is competing with 3 companies who make bikes with huge AL spars that can be seen from a mile away. And yes, the average person doesn't know the difference and doesn't care, but they do see their heros winning on machines with Aluminum frames. It's about marketing.

It's true that steel lasts longer and absorbes more energy, but I serously doubt AL frames are just going to fall apart from trail riding of things. It may be fair to say that the riders who are worried about their bike's vibration damping characteristics over their bikes handling could be far less durable, themselves, than the new "tinfoil" frames. That being said, the new frames will surely outlast the whiners.

Maybe somebody will manufacture a really flexy chromoly aftermarket subframe to keep the new Yamahas from rattling riders of the over-40 crowd to pieces.

Visit the ThumperTalk Store for the lowest prices on motorcycle / ATV parts and accessories - Guaranteed
  • CaptDan

Posted July 08, 2006 - 11:30 AM


I wonder why Honda is dropping the XR range????

I'm almost embarrassed to say this, but all Honda did to 80% of the XR lineup (CRF230F, CRF150F, CRF100F, CRF80F, CRF70F, CRF50F) was re-name them as CRFs. :ride:

  • Derwud

Posted December 20, 2006 - 07:34 AM


I think this needs a bump back to the top.

As the proud owner of an '07 WR450F. Frame construction is the least of my concerns. Power/Weight/Handling/Comfort are much higher on the list...

P.S. I switched from Alum to steel on my road bicycle because it's more forgiving and comfortable, but love the Alum cause it's lightwieght and faster!

  • MountainMax

Posted December 20, 2006 - 08:22 AM


I like the aluminum idea, however it makes it a Be-atch to remove the carb for jetting by the look of it though....

  • WGP

Posted December 20, 2006 - 09:24 AM


After having my steel frame crack and leak oil :thumbsup:

I like the AL frame

  • msgbean

Posted December 20, 2006 - 09:45 AM


I like the aluminum idea, however it makes it a Be-atch to remove the carb for jetting by the look of it though....


It will initially be tough but once its jetted you're done.

  • jetfuel

Posted December 20, 2006 - 05:53 PM


Aluminum aircraft parts and motorcycle frames are as comparable as eating a porterhouse steak and the hoof the cow stands on... hey they both made of cow! Why?

Aircraft are subject to repeated G loads in flight and on landing for thousands of hours. Like 10,000 to 65,000 hours or more of flight time. For those of you without a calculator handy, there are 8,760 hours in a year. All this time occurs in environmental conditions which can start out at 115+degrees F on the tarmack and 25 minutes later be at -50 degrees F in cruise. The Boeing 747 has a max takeoff weight of over 800,000 lbs. Transport aircraft have to be certified to something around 5 G's ultimate load factor (it breaks). So if we are conservative, and use a factor of 4 G's, the wing on the 747 generates/ is subject to, that ALUMINUM wing spar can only support 4,000,000 lbs.

Airplane wings are designed to flex so you get the snot beaten out of you in turbulence.

The fire fighting aircraft that have crashed in the last few years all were built half way back in the last century- 40's, 50's, and maybe early 60's. The newest one that crashed was at least 40 years old. They were operating in an extremely severe environment they were not designed for by the lowest bidder to the U.S. Forest Service. Maintenance may been a low priority. But hey, at least the Forest Service uses all that money it saves for all the ohv trails!

So what's my point? Who cares? Not me. I just had some time and thought I'd throw in a fact or two. Just go ride and have fun.

You guys have the most entertaining strings. Thanks.


Oh yeah... where's that avgas forum?


Actually the two do have bit in common as both have been engineered for specific loads and ratings...airframes are regularly inspected at different intervals depending on "flight hours" (Sorry,.has nothing to do with 8,760 hours in a year.) and cycles ( 1 cycle = 1 takeoff and landing) as recommended by the manufacturer ( who does rigorous testing to verify its limitations) or superceded by the FAA ... I guess what I'm getting at is regardless of its intended use ( Bike frame or airframe ) it has been designed for a specific useful lifespan under certain conditions ...I have read factory teams inspect bike frames and discard them when they are stretched beyond a certain limit. Is joe public given frame life info when he buys his new bike ...not that I'm aware of ....but obviously the manufacturers have an idea what it is. Is an Aluminium frame better?... of course it is ...will it out last the steel frames ????....... I don't know (or care) ask the manufacturer. Lastly, I know you said you didn't care ... Me neither I had some time to kill too...as you said just go ride and have fun...:thumbsup:

  • tony1970

Posted December 20, 2006 - 07:55 PM


It will initially be tough but once its jetted you're done.


You should be adjusting your jetting at least a few times a year to compensate for different altitutes and temperatures. You are never "done" with jetting.

  • wedrivezs

Posted December 20, 2006 - 07:58 PM


As far as the aluminum frame goes, I doubt the engineers blew all that time to go backwards.

  • Paewraul

Posted December 21, 2006 - 11:56 AM


Al frame, then FI soon! Woo-hoo. WR's just keep getting more and more bad-ass! Way to be progressive!

  • CheYuen

Posted December 21, 2006 - 05:26 PM


Wow, I can't believe I actually read through twelve pages of that crap! It was like a terrible movie that I just couldn't walk away from. Clark I couldn't agree with you more about this generation being a bunch of self-centered, un-based egotistical pricks with little to no respect for those with more experience than themselves. I learned at a very young age that the fortune cookie saying "a fool is quick to speak, a wise man is quick to listen," is very true. About this generation being lazy, I disagree. This is the age of instant gratification and efficiency. Just look at the newest cell phones; they act as a phone, a camera, portable computer with internet access and you can share all of the information you have at your finger tips with anyone that has a device capable of receiving that information. I have seen kids in 6th grade with one of these phones! Given that this generation was essentially raised this way, you should not be surprised that when they have a question about something, the first thing they do is post it on this forum for someone to quickly fire back an answer.

Having said that, I am 25 and love reading your posts, Clark. I like what you did with the threads at the top of this forum for quick reference to the most commonly requested information, good idea. I have a 2005 WR 450 and love it, possibly because it is awesome or maybe because I have only owned one other bike (yes, ignorance is bliss). My first bike was a salvaged XT 350 dual sport that I had to patch together with little to no knowledge about motorcycles.

Having this site available to me has been priceless while wrenching on my WR and I hope that experienced, knowledgeable people continue to contribute and answer questions from inexperienced, unknowledgeable people like myself.

Support the TT store!! :thumbsup:




 
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