Steel Framed Purists Unite!...A bit of an editorial


139 replies to this topic
  • clark4131

Posted June 30, 2006 - 09:59 PM

#21

Clark, you could have tried to incorporate mountain bikers in this post to really stir it up. :ride:


I really thought about it, but I decided to single out a new demographic. Be patient though, I'll come up with something just as entertaining. I was thinking about blind, homeless orphans or some other defenseless segment of society. That's the beauty of the human race...endless possibilities... :ride: SC

  • bluebike1999

Posted June 30, 2006 - 10:27 PM

#22

interesting dialogue and as expected, may be the target of some differences in opinion.
Have you seen the british television series, Grumpy Old Men? no this isnt a flame but a recognition of your stage in life. I sometimes laugh at how much i can relate to it at the tender age of 36

my 8 year old son thinks that all the crap he hears at school is new and original, just like i did when i was 8.
my dad just turned 70 and his outlook is similar to how i percieved yours, just more advanced.

as we get older we either become more accepting of things that dont agree with us, or with our personal ideas of logic, or we become bitter and disgruntled old farts who are always saying "when i was a boy..........."

my point? the aluminium frame debate is one of those things we just have to accept. on the logic side, it does reduce the centre of gravity, but how many of us will notice the benefit of the battery being 8mm lower?

the fierce market of modern the 450 is dictated by consumerism, to provide a constant list of improvements, ususally based on r&d and customer feedback.

whether the al frame will provide any tangible benefits to most of us will always be debateable, but if the main competitor is using it as a marketing advantage,and getting sales based on that, it must have one, regardless of practical and real world logic.

the other side to the youth v's experience issue is that you are now the product of 27 years experience with bikes, who didnt have a website to ask questions on when you were in your 20's, only had older more experienced people to aid the way you formed your opinions, and in your/our day, we had to respect people who were older, and we automatically respected people with more bike experience.

a website forum depletes the natural depth of behaviour developed by geniune human contact and creates an environment in which the most undesirable elements of any given subject become the most noticed, thus your dim view towards the current products of cyber society.

you cant put an old head on young shoulders
and try not to let little things bother you, clark e

  • Dan_Lorenze

Posted June 30, 2006 - 10:32 PM

#23

All this over an aluminum frame? :ride:

Sorry Steve I'm not with you on this one.... I've owned and raced 4 WRs so far, they have each all been better than the last one... Why should 07 be any different? I can remember similar discussions when the bikes came with estart..

There are just as many guys saying the bike won't be better as there are guys saying they'll be better, each never have ridden the bike yet, sorry it goes both ways. I'm trusting that the bike will handle better than ever I have no reason to believe they won't.

  • clark4131

Posted June 30, 2006 - 10:59 PM

#24

Don't get me wrong Dan, I'm not saying the '07 won't be an improvement over the last gen WR's. What I am saying is that it will likely not be night and day, more like dusk and dawn. Experienced racers like yourself, already in tune with a bike's performance nuances will derive the most benefit from it, as you already have both the mental and physical talent to exploit the improvements. It's the young knuckleheads that I take umbrage with and their puffed out chests and more balls than brains, "kiss my ass, old man" attitude. You know the type, the guys that think 4-wheel-drive and 22" spinners with low profile tires go together like salt and pepper.

For the record, I'm 37, hardly old by anyone's yardstick, but I have always been respectful of those more experienced than myself. The mental chasm between me and this new generation is something I find absolutely baffling. I deal with this sort of thing every day in my chosen profession. When given the opportunity, and often when not given it, I put them in their place rather bluntly as it tends to be more effective when delivered in such a way. If they don't like it and react, I know that I've gotten to them, and eventually it will hit the mark. Remember the story about the old bull and the young bull looking down on a herd of cows from atop a hill? It's kind of like that...SC

  • 06WR450FSM

Posted June 30, 2006 - 11:26 PM

#25

The last time I read a thread as funny as this, it was about loud bikes.

Anyway, I'll stick with my steel frame bike. I knew when I bought an '06 that the '07 would probably have the aluminum frame. If my name was Bubba or James, I could take advantage of it. Like has been pointed out, but missed by many, is that the greatest improvement available is inside the helmet, next is optimizing what you already have.

Isn't it bizarre that some people can actually enjoy riding an old XR? I could, but us old farts actually appreciate riding (I always did). But now its all about expectation and bling. No wonder everybody's on Prozac...

The '07 will be a great bike if you are in the market to buy something new. Enjoy!

  • mjslim

Posted June 30, 2006 - 11:27 PM

#26

Steve,
May we bestow on you the WR forum's first ever "Ann Coulter Award" - way to stir the pot!

  • Assassin

Posted June 30, 2006 - 11:32 PM

#27

If I remember right a kid named Bubba was blowing away Honda's on a out dated, under CC'ed, steel framed Kawi a few years ago. :ride:

And now he rides a Aluminum framed bike. What is your point? :ride:

  • ARin

Posted June 30, 2006 - 11:48 PM

#28

And now he rides a Aluminum framed bike. What is your point? :ride:



the point is, that there are a LOT of people in the world that could kick any one of our asses on a MUCH LESSER bike.

THE POINT IS, that (like clark said) the new bikes arent ALL they are hyped to be...GRANTED, they offers SOME benefits, lower CG...etc...


BUT, i feel that the benefits do NOT outweight the negatives....for those of us that jet our bikes several times a year, like to ride FAR, appreciate the vibration dampening characteristics of steel...etc...

As far as i am concerned...all of those things are what MAKES and offroad bike and offroad bike.

  • Assassin

Posted June 30, 2006 - 11:57 PM

#29

the point is, that there are a LOT of people in the world that could kick any one of our asses on a MUCH LESSER bike.

THE POINT IS, that (like clark said) the new bikes arent ALL they are hyped to be...GRANTED, they offers SOME benefits, lower CG...etc...


BUT, i feel that the benefits do NOT outweight the negatives....for those of us that jet our bikes several times a year, like to ride FAR, appreciate the vibration dampening characteristics of steel...etc...

As far as i am concerned...all of those things are what MAKES and offroad bike and offroad bike.

I do agree with you, but I like my bikes to handle the best they can too.

Dirtbikes benefit most from handling, so why not go with the best?

The worst thing about my bike would be fuel range. the '07 has the same fuel range as my '05, I don't see what all the fuss is about? People complained about the large fuel tanks on the 426's, and the ergo's were bad. So they changed it. The WR has evolved into more and more like a YZ, because that is what the majority of people want.

  • imdickie

Posted July 01, 2006 - 01:08 AM

#30

Funny thread. I got a kick out of it. Being the moderate that I am I have takes on both sides of the fence. First off I am old and fully admit it. This being my 40th year I have literally 37 years riding experience. Most recreational but there were a few races in there. I have ridden so many bikes I can't even remember. There was a Maco 500 that ripped my damm 14 year old arms off, and the 1972 Yamie Enduro 60 that I got tagged on by a dude riding an XR way to fast in a known kid riding area, and there is my current love my '05 WR450 with all free mods and a Mega Bomb header and Q2 exhaust. Enough of the qualifications...

One of the truest things I have ever heard in my life was "The best set of clubs don't make you Arnold Palmer" (For those of you under 25 think a white Tiger Woods.) That is certainly true for dirt bikes. While my WR has made a better rider is doesn't make me Johnny Campbell.

Technology of dirt bikes has slowed to a crawl. Try and think of the last major tech break through on dirt bikes, one that gave a company a significant advantage over another. The difference between a steel frame and an AL frame is incremental at best. Yes the AL frame is lighter and stiffer but the actual bike ends up heavier because of the added need for an oil sump and pump. The stiffness advantage is debatable. There are some that swear they can feel the difference and it makes it a better bike. I can actually feel the difference between an AL frame and a steel frame and don’t like it. I like the predictability of the flex on a steel frame. It is what I grew up with and what I know.

The most significant advantage of the WR going to an AL frame is the change in riding characteristics. The bike is actually heavier than my ’05 but it probably feels a lot lighter than mine. That is what 8mm lower engine and narrower engine tilt will do for a dirt bike. For an “A” level desert rider that can and does make a difference. Not necessarily making them faster but a different and potentially more enjoyable ride.

All that said I won’t be upgrading my bike this year. Even though admittedly the AL frame is kind of sexy and I am sure Yamie will be doing everything in their power to tempt old farts with dough like myself to part with our hard earned cash for a newer sexier bike (See the old wife analogy you married guys?). I love my bike and for now won’t part with it. I will probably go with EFI after a year to work out the problems. I ride all kinds of elevations and being able to load a fuel map before a ride appeals to me a great deal.

While my monologue was about the AL vs steel frame the original post on this thread wasn’t...not really. To that end I fully agree with Clark. I ride OW a great deal and see all kinds, but the ones that irritate me the most are the 20 somethings that just don’t give a rats azz about anything but themselves. We have finally gotten to a generation of humans that are so self involved I am concerned that the human race might actually end. Sure each generation has had it’s wild bunch (I was one of them in my generation) but what I have seen lately, especially out riding really makes me think that we have raised a generation of over stimulated, over indulged young adults.

Current young adults have grown up in an ever increasing world of hype and stimulation. While I don’t agree with the argument that violent video games and/or TV leads to violence directly certainly no one can disagree that it desensitizes players or views to violence. Further, young adults have grown up with a warped sense of morals. Not the church going bible thumping morals (Although that might have solved the problems of today if youth had religion of some sort), but morals of what is right and what is wrong in a civilized society. Morality took a nose dive when the leader of the free world got a blow job in the oval office; lied about it, then said it wasn’t sex. For any of you that have daughters or are married for that matter, you know it is sex and the thought of a lecherous old man whipping out is Johnson for your baby to suck on is morally wrong no matter what the President or the press says.

All and all our current batch of people coming into adulthood does not give me a comforting feeling that the world will be a good place for my daughters when they reach adulthood. I know there are exceptions, and I also know that riding dirt bikes lends me to a specific set of people, but that was kind of the point wasn’t it? Young dirt bike riders (with notable exceptions) are self involved pricks that need to boost their own horrible decisions in life by justifying them, like the one that will sink them deep into debt for years because they wanted an AL frame.

out

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  • ARin

Posted July 01, 2006 - 01:09 AM

#31

i guess they cant satisfy everyone eh?

ah well, as long as my 04 is running right...i have no complaints....nobody is forcing anyone to buy a newer bike...

  • Chuck_Nelson

Posted July 01, 2006 - 01:11 AM

#32

I have been riding dirt bikes for over 20 years. I've had Honda's Suzukis, KTM's and now I have an 06 WR450F. I have requested information on Thumpertalk like what is the best way to get the shock off without removing the entire rear of the motorcycle, etc. You folks that have had this type of bike for awhile know a lot about the 450 that people new to the bike do not. I don't think asking questions like that make me a poseur or too lazy to read the manual. Hell, reading the manual led me to ask if there was a better way, and there was.

It does get tedious to check here and see the same old free mod questions, but being part of a community like this means that you have wide ranging levels of experience with the bike in question. I have learned more about my new WR through the veterans responses to newbie questions than I ever have from the manual. So please keep sharing your wisdom.

I have a Harley too, and I saw the same kind of stuff when Harley came out with the Twin Cam 88 engine. There were all kinds of statements made by people that it was crap, unreliable, underpowerd, etc. before anyone even had one. It is human nature to degrade the new when you have the old. No one likes to think that the thing they just paid thousands of dollars for is now second class. The good thing is that this debate will only go on for a year or so.

Have fun.

  • YamahaWR450FMike

Posted July 01, 2006 - 01:24 AM

#33

this forum is becoming more and more like the honda forums.

and by the way, im with you clark. give me steel frames, tall stance, range in my tank and higher compression. the 04 was the last of the great wr's.

VIVA!!!

and I have a 04 and love it!

  • TARFELE

Posted July 01, 2006 - 04:28 AM

#34

One final word before I sign off and let you call me names and provide unsubstantiated credentials to compare to my own...this board used to have a crop of regular members who had an encyclopedic knowledge of the WR, but they have gone missing. "Why", you ask. Well, I believe that they've gotten a bad taste in their mouths from all the posing, posturing and lack of self-reliance that used to be present on this board. When I first joined, I was amazed at how eager to help everyone was when I had questions as a newbie. Mind you, I "lurked" for quite some time and learned as much as I could from my own efforts before I piped up, but that is no longer the case with the average newbie. Things seem to have deteriorated to name-calling and spoon-feeding, and it saddens me. Indy, NC, et. al, you are missed. Clark out...SC


The entire post was dead on but I like this part the best! Very well said!

  • Drunken Monkey

Posted July 01, 2006 - 05:48 AM

#35

All this over a frame???

Everyone is going to have a real good laugh over this when they actually ride a Yamaha Aluminium framed bike! Low CG means everything for handling, that's what the new set up is all about. The WR's are way over due for a facelift, we have got same bike for 4 years now, even then, not much different than the first WR400's. I welcome new WR, I might even go back to a WR now.

I am just hanging out for all the bike comparisons! I love reading those things! I guess that will be the next big bitch session!

  • DIGITAL_SOLDIER

Posted July 01, 2006 - 08:52 AM

#36

Wow Clarke, you're the grumpiest, self righteous, un-old guy I've ever heard. I applaud the expression of your distaste for the youth in our sport, believe me as I age ever so ungracefully, I feel more and more like you. You can't change youth ignorance or attitude, but how you deal with it and address it really reveals how good of a mentor or influence YOU are. Be more of an ambassador for offroad bikes instead of a internet forum soapbox blow hard. Throwing insults at someone because they don't know how to mod their airbox or because their post count is in single digits doesn't do anyone any good. I don't post here regularly anymore because I've learned what I needed to know and I thank TT for it. I use TT more as a hookup to ride, and I've met some great people. (Indy, DrewP, DD and others. Hopefully many more!) It's a good resource regardless of ability, experience or knowledge.

This debate on the frame shit is just stupid. You calling it tin foil and disregarding it before you've even tried it is truly ignorant. Someone pinned you big time too when they said if you have tried the '05 YZ to the '06 was right on. The difference in those two bikes was a change for the better. I feel the same will hold true for the WR as well.

So not to ignite the all out flame fest, (I'm your Huckleberry, if you feel it necessary) but your post didn't really do anyone any benefit. Thanks for sharing, I guess.

Have a nice 4th.

  • TWILES

Posted July 01, 2006 - 09:40 AM

#37

I must be one of a kind here. Since everyone has brought up their age as their justification for knowledge, I'm 24. I'll be 25 next month and I don't know shit about any dirt bike other than the one I have and not much about it. I thought I knew a lot about quads until the thumpers arose and I was out dated that day. I got a 500 quadracer at 15 and didn't have another 4-stroke until I got the 450R 2 years ago and it sucked and the rest of the quads sucked so I got a WR. Personally speaking from my nil intellect on dirt bikes in general, I think someone would be stupid to get ride of any bike that looks like new for the next one. As for the guys who ask clarks idea of " bad " questions, they have to learn somehow. I asked a couple when I first got on here and clark was the first to inform me of how stupid I was. THANKS I had no idea that I was supposed to search the entire site for the answer to my questions when there is a forum that is supposed to do that for you. I swear clark has my wife's idea: There are no wrong answer's. You just asked me the wrong question. You have to ask the question with the answer that's in my head or you'll get the wrong one and then some long speech on how stupid you are or in this case how " I'm better than everyone else. "

  • tony1970

Posted July 01, 2006 - 10:44 AM

#38

OK I slept on this whole subject and came to a conclusion...... i am going to buy a '07! Sorry Clark I can't take it! Tomorrow I am going to the Yamaha dealer and plunking down a few hundred bucks to reserve one. I know I know Yamaha will have a surplus of these things in a few months but I reaaaaally have to have one. I know I will pay the highest price once they come out and it would be cheaper to wait but I have to have one before everyone else. So I am selling my '05. I know I have put a bunch of money and time into it and there is no way I am going to get the investment back but I have to have that '07. So here is a quick question for the steel frame old farts out there before this forum splits in two. Who makes a good skid plate for this thing? I found 1000 posts recommending the Utah skid plate. Is this a good one? Is it made of steel? I figure if I put a aluminum one on my steel frame I would need a steel one for my new aluminum frame. :ride:

Side note. This post is for sarcastic reading only. I am not selling my '05 and I am not buying an '07. My wife saw me typing this and grabbed a large kitchen knife and started sharpening it. :ride: BTW I do like the new frame but my '05 has to last for a while, or until she cannot remember what my bike looks like. :ride:

  • Kmorris

Posted July 01, 2006 - 10:54 AM

#39

'or until she cannot remember what my bike looks like'

That is just too funny.

:ride:

  • thedude05

Posted July 01, 2006 - 01:03 PM

#40

Since the introduction of the '07 WR with the tin foil frame, it seems the yahoo's have come out of the woodwork...loud-mouthed, 20-something's with single or double digit post counts that barely know a Unabiker from a Quickshot. I've seen untold numbers of duplicate posts about fuel screws, free mods, leak jets and AIS musings, but nary a single sentence about how someone had searched the archives or even glanced at their factory manual. But, I guess this is just par for the course these days, self reliance and personal initiative have evidently gone the way of the dodo. God forbid one of these folks is more than 5 miles from their Escalade when their bike craps out and their cellphone is out of service range.

At the risk of climbing onto my soap box, once again, as one who has spent countless hours researching both on the net and at the workbench using both brain and hands, I'm disgusted with this new generation. It's as if MTV and Mountain Dew have written their life's guidebook and have thrown in a healthy helping of Britney Spears' IQ to boot.

Take for example, the recent debate on the new WR. Here we have a bunch of people saying it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, yet not a single person on either side of the issue has even smelled one yet, let alone test rode. There is no empirical evidence one way or the other, and to laud it's superiority over past models is simply the hallmark of a poseur. But then again, poseurs are what most of the new generation aspires to be, so why am I surprised?

I have been riding motorcycles of all types for over 27 years. I've bought, sold, modified, broken and repaired close to 20 bikes in that time with every major brand represented in that group, save Harley Davidson . I've ridden a CRF-R, CRF-X, and all three generations of WR's (400, 426, 450) in a 48-hour period in varied terrain, just so I could get a feel for what I may or may not have missed. Unfortunately, I was unable to try the KTM XC at the time, because my buddy got sick and couldn't show up with his. I have ridden it since, and it made the biggest impression on me when compared to my WR, but I digress. With that experience under my belt, I can tell you that the most important improvement that I've seen is with what's inside your helmet, and how willing you are to shut that hole under your nose and listen to what someone with experience has to say. If not, then your existence is simply a waste of my time and, unfortunately, your own as well.

Now I know I'm going to get flamed for this little diatribe, but so be it, flame away. From my experience, there is little difference between my '05 WR and an '06 CRF-X. The power is comparable, as is the handling, suspension and the ergos. It took me approximatley 90 seconds to figure out what was up with the Honda when I jumped on it. From then on, I was as comfortable with it as I was with my own bike. From the data supplied by Yamaha regarding the ergos with the '07, I am highly confident that it will be a similar situation. With that said, if Bling-Bling and the next greatest thing is what gets you off, go for it, it's your money. But if I had to choose between several bikes, all new, but with a year or two separating their models, then the smart money goes with the cheaper bike, you know, the one with the fugly steel (gasp!) frame.

One final word before I sign off and let you call me names and provide unsubstantiated credentials to compare to my own...this board used to have a crop of regular members who had an encyclopedic knowledge of the WR, but they have gone missing. "Why", you ask. Well, I believe that they've gotten a bad taste in their mouths from all the posing, posturing and lack of self-reliance that used to be present on this board. When I first joined, I was amazed at how eager to help everyone was when I had questions as a newbie. Mind you, I "lurked" for quite some time and learned as much as I could from my own efforts before I piped up, but that is no longer the case with the average newbie. Things seem to have deteriorated to name-calling and spoon-feeding, and it saddens me. Indy, NC, et. al, you are missed. Clark out...SC





:ride: :ride: :ride: :banana: :p :p



Unfortunately this doesn't apply to just your WR's.....The disease is spreading!!!!




 
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