1710 replies to this topic

[theDogger TT Gold Member]

rpxtreme03 said:

if you want to change characteristics like a softer/harder ls or hs. your going to need to add/subtract shims to set the preload differently.

WHAT????????:bonk:

Sorry fellas been away awhile with life.....coaching full time Girls Traveling AAU 8th grade team and have little time...

Shawn suggestion is the way to go....You will not be able to get there from here with the OEM stuff...



theDogger:thumbsup:

Edited by theDogger, 01 January 2012 - 09:16 AM.

[Tepco TT Bronze Member]

theDogger said:

WHAT????????:bonk:

Sorry fellas been away awhile with life.....coaching full time Girls Traveling AAU 8th grade team and have little time...

Shawn suggestion is the way to go....You will not be able to get there from her wit the OEM stuff...



theDogger:thumbsup:

Thanks Dogger, the more I look at it the more I'm coming to the same conclusion.

Now does a CRF150 base bolt have a standard shim stack set up?

[shockdoc TT Addict]

Tepco said:

Now does a CRF150 base bolt have a standard shim stack set up?

Yes.....

doc

[rpxtreme03]

rpxtreme03 said:

If you want to change the entire range i would say you want a stiffer spring. behind the washer. if you want to change characteristics like a softer/harder ls or hs. your going to need to add/subtract shims to set the preload differently.

what i meant by this is that you can stifffen the entire range by adding a stiffer spring if you wish to keep this same style stack. however if you want to adjust the suspension beyond that, which i imagine he will, he is going to need to add/subtract shims. adding and subtracting shims will adjust the preload of that spring and give you a different feel.

if you keep that same spring in there you can probably add shims to make the suspension stiffer but IMO you are going to experience a much stiffer LSC and the HSC will not change much.

again IMO you will not achieve what you are looking for without a heavier spring in your valves. perhaps the LS would be correct but your HSC would be much softer than what you want

[HJN TT Newbie]

Hi,
planning to change the seals inside the Damper rod tonight. Is there any special tools needed or is't an easy task?



Thanks in advance

[rpxtreme03]

Tepco said:

Yes I do apologize for the double post but all the knowledge is here and the other post has the stack from a CR80.

This is about my CR85 forks and I didn't see a response from ShockDoc on the other post?

Thanks for investigating though I will look up the FC base bolt. But for now I was figuring up some numbers on the available shims I have now and will thicken up the stack and lower the viscosity and change the level from 100mm to 95mm and see how that does.

converting to more normal set up would be an absolute nightmare unless you were provided you with a good starting point.
i do agree with shawn though. if you did convert you would need to find a collar of some sort for your mid and set a float. i think you would likely want 8 or ten face shims with no HS in you mid and a very low float. 0.10mm or less would probably be a good starting point.you would also need a pivot shim which you could easily adjust the size of to find the apropriate "stiffness". your mid is going to be the focal point in most of this process.

i dont know much about road bikes or the suspension realm for that matter.im kinda new to it all, but the knowledge that i have gathered so far you should probably stay away from a progressive suspension. keep you stacks very basic and mostly composed of LS shims. also i would have as little float possible in the mid to prevent the bike from dropping deep into the stroke too fast when coming into a corner. less float makes the parachute effect of the shims come quicker in the stroke. you dont want your bike to free bleed half way through the stroke coming into a corner. that would create a very inconsistant feeling in the corner.
this is all IMO and im no expert so take it for what its worth. its just my thinking of it all feel free to correct me where im wrong.

[txkawboy TT Bronze Member]

FWIW to any new lurker to Dogger's fantastic thread: I was dropped repeatedly as a baby, and still had no trouble revalving my forks (BV and MV). Second fork leg went three times faster. Not one single 'special tool' did I require; 2003 CRF450. (Yes, I intend to modify them further, later. Right now my shock needs some help to catch up. LoL). DO IT!
I have two tips to pass on:
1. As Dogger states, the filing-off of the peened areas are indeed the only tedious parts of the entire job; and you certainly will rip off some stem-threads if you do not remove ALL of the peened threads---this means you must also remove the peening that extends down PAST the nut's flat top/surface, forming a "trough" of peened material. So, I used a file to get the initial peening as recc'd, but then used a Dremel with a very tiny diamond-headed bit, to dig out the "trough" between the stem and the nut. This "trough" contains a whole peened thread and must be removed; when my bike was being assembled, HungLo must have been in a good mood, b/c he really did a number on the peening. It was >1mm thick and extended down past the nut's surface. Using the Dremel-and-tiny-bit on the trough salvages some stem-thread, which is never a bad thing.
These top few salvaged threads will also serve as some "aggie locktite"/safety, as they make the nut reluctant to unthread.
2. Another "farm trick": in place of a fork-seal driver, use a short piece of 1/4" soft, finely-braided nylon rope/parachute cord, wrapped around the inner tube between the dust cap and circlip: mildly heat the outer tube just like u do during disassembly, then bottom-out the fork with light force.

[MRW TT Gold Member]

This tip from "Kawboy" also works EXTREMELY well on the 2010 18mm Showa shocks:) Great tips Kawboy!!

I too was dropped a few as a child:bonk:





Quote was edited(shortened)

txkawboy said:

I have two tips to pass on:
1. As Dogger states, the filing-off of the peened areas are indeed the only tedious parts of the entire job; and you certainly will rip off some stem-threads if you do not remove ALL of the peened threads---this means you must also remove the peening that extends down PAST the nut's flat top/surface, forming a "trough" of peened material. So, I used a file to get the initial peening as recc'd, but then used a Dremel with a very tiny diamond-headed bit, to dig out the "trough" between the stem and the nut. This "trough" contains a whole peened thread and must be removed; when my bike was being assembled, HungLo must have been in a good mood, b/c he really did a number on the peening. It was >1mm thick and extended down past the nut's surface. Using the Dremel-and-tiny-bit on the trough salvages some stem-thread, which is never a bad thing.
These top few salvaged threads will also serve as some "aggie locktite"/safety, as they make the nut reluctant to unthread.
.

[theDogger TT Gold Member]

One thing to add in regards to the Peens.. Very Important on the SHOWA Shock Shafts NOT to grind it flat because if to much material is taken off you can expose the rebound jet in the shaft and ruin the shaft. The KYB shaft are not as big as issue!

Best way to take peens off if you do not have a vertical sand belt is a dremel tool with a sanding Fine-Medium Drum. (Don't use a grinding wheel you have less control)

-On both the Forks and the Shaft first loosen the nut and back it off until you get resistance from the peen.
-Tighten the nut and use the dremel and work around the peen.
-Again loosen the nut until getting more resistance (being careful especially on the BV and MV) tighten it down and repeat the above step.
-You will have to do this several time and then the nut will come off without and issue.

Here is a shot of one of my BV. You can see how clean it is. A Vertical Belt Sand was used.


This is an A-Kit shaft that has a removable Rebound Jet. In the OEM shaft this is part of the shaft and sits below 2mm below the shaft tip.



It is also best to pencil the ends after removing the peens to remove any burrs.

Again a vertical sanding Belt Works the Best

theDogger:thumbsup:

[pope610 TT Newbie]

Does anyone know what the free length of a KYB ICS spring is for a 09 crf450 ?
Just got some from SD and they are .100in. or 2.56mm shorter that other ics springs I have.

[TCE TT Member]

The Dogger saved my life.. No.. not really.. but this suspension may one day.. and we would never know it.. as it would just suck it up as opposed to buck me off and throw me into some deep abyss-

I ride two very distinct bikes-
CRF450X 2005 w/Dogger Suspension- Set up for Enduro racing-
YZ450F 2007 w/RG3 which I race in MX nationals-

The dramatic difference between the bike before and after is drastic- I can see the difference as clearly in Doggers as the RG3 kit in my Yamaha-

I have access to a stock CRF450X05 ( my neighbor ) and I went out and did some preliminary testing

I would grade it an A- It feels a bit firmer in the rear than in the front.. enough so that it kicks a bit in the rear when the front sucks up the bump - half moon style bumps kick harder than dips of the same height/depth..

The front is amazing.. where I see it most -- the stock suspension would skip over light choppy hardpack in the turns.. and want to then want to skip to the outside and end up busting your inside knee... the new setup rolls over and through .. and keeps on going.. never seeming to let go of the earth- ( same on the HS straighaways.. jsut keeps on rolling.. all nice and smooth )

I am attaching the modified stack so others can see..
and after... I will post my original stack.. as I have seen others looking for one- although I cannot imagine anyone wanting to go back to stock??

DOGGER MIRACLE SUSPENSION

FORK
BV
Count O.D. Thickness
10 30 X 0.10
1 24 X 0.10
1 30 X 0.10
1 28 X 0.10
1 26 X 0.10
1 24 X 0.10
1 22 X 0.10
1 20 X 0.10
1 19 X 0.10
1 18 X 0.10
1 17 X 0.10
2 14 X 0.10

MV
8mm Inner Dia.
2 20 X 0.10
3 17 X 0.10

6mm Inner Dia.
2 9 X 0.10
3 10 X 0.10

Collar 1.70
Float = 0.20

Rebound
Count O.D. Thickness
2 20 X 0.10
1 18 X 0.10
1 12 X 0.10
1 16 X 0.10
1 14 X 0.10
1 13 X 0.10
1 12 X 0.10
1 11 X 0.20



SHOCK
Comp ID=12
Count O.D. Thickness
14 44 X 0.20
1 32 X 0.15
1 30 X 0.15
1 42 X 0.15
1 40 X 0.20
1 38 X 0.20
1 36 X 0.20
1 34 X 0.20
1 32 X 0.20
1 30 X 0.25
1 28 X 0.25
1 26 X 0.25
1 24 X 0.25
1 22 X 0.30
1 19 X 0.30

Reb ID=12
Count O.D. Thickness
2 40 X 0.25
1 40 X 0.20
1 26 X 0.10
1 40 X 0.30
1 38 X 0.30
1 36 X 0.30
1 34 X 0.30
1 32 X 0.30
1 30 X 0.30
1 28 X 0.30
1 27 X 0.30
1 26 X 0.30




MY ORIGINAL HONDA SUSPENSION CRF450X05
FORK
BV
Count O.D. Thickness
14 30 x 10
1 27 x 10
2 29 x 10
2 28 x 10
1 27 x 10
1 26 x 10
1 25 x 10
1 24 x 10
1 23 x 10
1 22 x 10
1 20 x 10
1 18 x 10
1 16 x 10
5 14 x 10

MV
Count O.D. Thickness
8mm Inner Dia.
2 20 X 10
4 17 X 10

6mm Inner Dia.
3 10 X 10.00

Rebound
Count O.D. Thickness
1 20 X 10
1 19 X 10
1 18 X 10
1 12 X 10
1 16 X 10
1 14 X 10
1 13 X 10
1 12 X 10
1 11 X 10
4 16 X 10

SHOCK
Count O.D. Thickness
15 44 X 20
6 44 X 15
1 38 X 15
1 30 X 15
1 44 X 25
1 40 X 25
1 38 X 30
1 36 X 30
1 34 X 30
1 32 X 30
1 30 X 30
1 28 X 30
1 27 X 30
1 26 X 30
1 24 X 30
1 24 X 30
1 23 X 30
1 22 X 30
3 30 X 30


Reb
Count O.D. Thickness
3 40 X 25
1 24 X 10
1 40 X 25
1 38 X 25
1 36 X 25
1 34 X 30
1 32 X 30
1 30 X 30
1 29 X 30
1 28 X 30

Thanks

[MXandSXracer21 TT Silver Member]

TCE, on 24 January 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

The Dogger saved my life.. No.. not really.. but this suspension may one day.. and we would never know it.. as it would just suck it up as opposed to buck me off and throw me into some deep abyss-

I ride two very distinct bikes-
CRF450X 2005 w/Dogger Suspension- Set up for Enduro racing-
YZ450F 2007 w/RG3 which I race in MX nationals-

The dramatic difference between the bike before and after is drastic- I can see the difference as clearly in Doggers as the RG3 kit in my Yamaha-

I have access to a stock CRF450X05 ( my neighbor ) and I went out and did some preliminary testing

I would grade it an A- It feels a bit firmer in the rear than in the front.. enough so that it kicks a bit in the rear when the front sucks up the bump - half moon style bumps kick harder than dips of the same height/depth..

The front is amazing.. where I see it most -- the stock suspension would skip over light choppy hardpack in the turns.. and want to then want to skip to the outside and end up busting your inside knee... the new setup rolls over and through .. and keeps on going.. never seeming to let go of the earth- ( same on the HS straighaways.. jsut keeps on rolling.. all nice and smooth )

I am attaching the modified stack so others can see..
and after... I will post my original stack.. as I have seen others looking for one- although I cannot imagine anyone wanting to go back to stock??

DOGGER MIRACLE SUSPENSION

FORK
BV
Count O.D. Thickness
10 30 X 0.10
1 24 X 0.10
1 30 X 0.10
1 28 X 0.10
1 26 X 0.10
1 24 X 0.10
1 22 X 0.10
1 20 X 0.10
1 19 X 0.10
1 18 X 0.10
1 17 X 0.10
2 14 X 0.10

MV
8mm Inner Dia.
2 20 X 0.10
3 17 X 0.10

6mm Inner Dia.
2 9 X 0.10
3 10 X 0.10

Collar 1.70
Float = 0.20

Rebound
Count O.D. Thickness
2 20 X 0.10
1 18 X 0.10
1 12 X 0.10
1 16 X 0.10
1 14 X 0.10
1 13 X 0.10
1 12 X 0.10
1 11 X 0.20



SHOCK
Comp ID=12
Count O.D. Thickness
14 44 X 0.20
1 32 X 0.15
1 30 X 0.15
1 42 X 0.15
1 40 X 0.20
1 38 X 0.20
1 36 X 0.20
1 34 X 0.20
1 32 X 0.20
1 30 X 0.25
1 28 X 0.25
1 26 X 0.25
1 24 X 0.25
1 22 X 0.30
1 19 X 0.30

Reb ID=12
Count O.D. Thickness
2 40 X 0.25
1 40 X 0.20
1 26 X 0.10
1 40 X 0.30
1 38 X 0.30
1 36 X 0.30
1 34 X 0.30
1 32 X 0.30
1 30 X 0.30
1 28 X 0.30
1 27 X 0.30
1 26 X 0.30




MY ORIGINAL HONDA SUSPENSION CRF450X05
FORK
BV
Count O.D. Thickness
14 30 x 10
1 27 x 10
2 29 x 10
2 28 x 10
1 27 x 10
1 26 x 10
1 25 x 10
1 24 x 10
1 23 x 10
1 22 x 10
1 20 x 10
1 18 x 10
1 16 x 10
5 14 x 10

MV
Count O.D. Thickness
8mm Inner Dia.
2 20 X 10
4 17 X 10

6mm Inner Dia.
3 10 X 10.00

Rebound
Count O.D. Thickness
1 20 X 10
1 19 X 10
1 18 X 10
1 12 X 10
1 16 X 10
1 14 X 10
1 13 X 10
1 12 X 10
1 11 X 10
4 16 X 10

SHOCK
Count O.D. Thickness
15 44 X 20
6 44 X 15
1 38 X 15
1 30 X 15
1 44 X 25
1 40 X 25
1 38 X 30
1 36 X 30
1 34 X 30
1 32 X 30
1 30 X 30
1 28 X 30
1 27 X 30
1 26 X 30
1 24 X 30
1 24 X 30
1 23 X 30
1 22 X 30
3 30 X 30


Reb
Count O.D. Thickness
3 40 X 25
1 24 X 10
1 40 X 25
1 38 X 25
1 36 X 25
1 34 X 30
1 32 X 30
1 30 X 30
1 29 X 30
1 28 X 30

Thanks

What skill level is this for? Also, can you give more details regarding oil height, spring rates, Pressure Springs, etc.?

[rpxtreme03]

holy soft stack! mxandsxracer and i have some simular stacks for woods riding. i love mine.and if i remember correctly he was quite impressed with his but neither is this soft in the mid valve.what is your float hight? that seems way too soft to me. what oil are you running?

[TCE TT Member]

Oil.. 405
PS 1.6
Motul factory 2.5
Float = .20

I am new to enduro.. ( dogger set this up for me.. he called it is jr woods )
I race MX here in Peru.. Obviously the level isn't at the US level.. I race in nationals .. won in ametuer a few years ago and now race in over 30.. finish in the top 10 nationally - I would consider myself a pretty confident and capable rider- Slowing down MX and looking to transition into enduro - rally type racing - What is Enduro in Peru - did you see DAKAR - That is Enduro in Peru- Hard pack.. sand.. dunes.. rocks.. chop.. with some river crossing.. when on the coast.. and when in the jungle.. the absolute opposite.. mud.. rocks.. roots .. fire road type connections.. but still high speed-


It is hard to class myself based upon the US ratings system as I have never raced there..

Season starts Feb 18th - That's when it will get its first real test - not just local riding on the practice track -

I do not know the speed that you all race in the woods- so what I say is hard.. is relative based upon the speed that we come upon the rocks, roots, dips, lips, and hard edged bumps-
I cannot imagine ( really.. I cannot actually imagine ) racing through the woods in 4th gear .. fast 4th .. We are always in 3-5th gear-
I imagine that you guys race in the woods slower.. more technical .. with a firmer suspension so that it wouldn't feel mushy and non-responsive..
From what I have seen.. I think it our enduro/rally may be more like what you guys call GNCC .. but I have never been to one of those either-

your thoughts??

[rpxtreme03]

gncc are the national hair scramble series..we have enduroes here too. the hare scrambles are simular to an enduro but much higher paced. enduros are usually very narrow technical trails where a harescramble is almost a mid point between an enduro and MX. harescrambles are less technical than enduros and much fast, but they are 2 hours long and more technical than a motocross race. the gncc series for example has 6 ft. tracks. this means that you can put three bikes or so side by side through the entire track. where an enduro you might be lucky to find enough room to pass some one because the trails are typicaly very narrow and technical making it a slow speed race. i like my suspension slightly stiffer because too soft and your bike will wash in every corner not to mention bottoming..idk about you guys but it is not uncommon for the tracks in my series to include a MX section.

[rpxtreme03]

are your spring rates correct for your weight? maybe try running a zip tie on you fork to see if you are bottoming out frequently

[TCE TT Member]

That is a great idea.. about the tie wrap- I resprung for my weight.. eibachs in the front and a FC in the rear-
So that is what I was thinking.. we are alot higher speed here.. As on the coast we are almost purely desert ( which includes rocks, hills, dunes, drop offs, etc ) to have a place where it was only wide enough for 3 bikes is a rarity.. I might be racing across a dune field .. climbing in 4th and descending as fast gravity pulls you.. ( sometimes even with the rear brake locked ) but they do throw in a 8" ridgeline or a boulder field or two to space out the crowd-
When you spoke of 2 hour races.. was that to short short or to long.. our races last most of the morning.. starting at 8 ish and last to noon or so

rpxtreme03, on 02 February 2012 - 04:26 AM, said:

are your spring rates correct for your weight? maybe try running a zip tie on you fork to see if you are bottoming out frequently

Edited by TCE, 02 February 2012 - 03:08 PM.

[rpxtreme03]

well the the enduros are much longer. but a harescramble is typically 2-3 hours long. if your going faster you would want a stiffer suspension in our area but it is a different environment. you are racing in dunes. typically in dunes you want a very soft suspension. usually the softest suspensions you will find are on woods bikes or dunes bikes. we are encountering rocks and roots and bumps all the time and one after another where we need the bottoming resistance because our suspension wouldnt have the recovery time. where you would likely encounter far less.

when the suspension bottoms frequently it can give a simular feeling as you would get to a stiff supension because the sudden stop would feel harsh and unpleasent all together. thats why i try to avoid bottoming a lot.dont get me wrong my suspension is plenty soft but i dont think i would wanna drop another ls shim in the mid

[Flyin-A TT Gold Member]

Question:

Are the scribe marks on the factory showa spings the same for the 250f and 450f?

2 scribe marks for my '07 are supposed to be stock .46's

Are the 2 scribe marks for the 250f .46's also ?

Thanks,

A

[MXandSXracer21 TT Silver Member]

Flyin-A, on 06 February 2012 - 04:52 PM, said:

Question:

Are the scribe marks on the factory showa spings the same for the 250f and 450f?

2 scribe marks for my '07 are supposed to be stock .46's

Are the 2 scribe marks for the 250f .46's also ?

Thanks,

A

It all depends on whether the 2 scribe marks are next two each other or if one is about 70 degrees apart from the other. If it is the later, then it is the 0.45 kg springs from the 250F.