The BEST engine oil is ???? Syn vs Conv.


120 replies to this topic
  • DigilubeJay

Posted August 13, 2006 - 10:42 AM


http://www.blackston....com/index.html

Blackstone is a very reputable lab. They will send you a kit to collect/send in the sample with.
Regular elemental analysis is $20.

  • grayracer513

Posted August 13, 2006 - 12:08 PM


Is is possible to clean the brass yamaha oil filters and reuse them. They get really pricey after a while.

Did you read the 4th post on page 9?

  • grayracer513

Posted August 13, 2006 - 12:20 PM


It's only useless, Satch, because you have it in your mind that all you know is all there is to know.

That's a bit like the situation with the pot and the kettle right there...

Could it be maybe you used a totally different type of ATF than what is recommended for a wetclutch situation? ie..TypeF

Somehow, after working on them for 21 years, I was under the impression that all automatic transmissions, even Fords, operated at least partly through the use of wet clutches. Amazing how you can miss something like that. I do prefer Dexron III/Mercon, though. But that has more to do with its performance as a lubricant, and not it's compatibilty with wet clutches.

Until you make a true forensic investigation of such an issue, all you can really do is speculate and be part of this sort of discussion. To think you have it all figured out, to a point that you can call this discussion useless, is somewhat ignornat.

I have been an occasional advocate of ATF for MC gearboxes in the past, but if it doesn't work well in a particular bike, then it doesn't. If the problem exists with one fluid, and not with any of several others, I'd say the requirements of the scientific method had been satisfied.

  • DigilubeJay

Posted August 13, 2006 - 06:26 PM


That's a bit like the situation with the pot and the kettle right there...

Yeah, and it is great that you found the need to chime in.

Somehow, after working on them for 21 years, I was under the impression that all automatic transmissions, even Fords, operated at least partly through the use of wet clutches. Amazing how you can miss something like that. I do prefer Dexron III/Mercon, though. But that has more to do with its performance as a lubricant, and not it's compatibilty with wet clutches.

Perhaps you should have paid more attention.
And just what lubricating prowess does Mercon/Dexron fluid have over any other types if ATF, Dr.? Fill us in.

If the problem exists with one fluid, and not with any of several others, I'd say the requirements of the scientific method had been satisfied.

Then remind me to not use you for any lab situations.
Consider this, Dr...
What if there are several same model bikes, and most all of them run fine with a fluid, but one of them seems to not run well with that particular fluid? What would your scientific conclusion be then?
Good scientific conclusions needs data. What you have suggested lacks data to be able to satisfy any sort of definative conslusion, other than for some reason that one bikes does not like ATF. More often than not there is an underlying reason unrelated to fluid choice.

But then, you only have the issue of bagging on me and anything I present here...your motives have nothing to do with this discussion.

  • grayracer513

Posted August 13, 2006 - 07:03 PM


And just what lubricating prowess does Mercon/Dexron fluid have over any other types if ATF, Dr.? Fill us in.

Dexron II and III have shear resistance equivalent to that expected of API GL-5 gear lubes, types A and F generally rise only to GL-1, which isn't bad for a 5wt fluid after all, but not as good as GL-5.

The gripe against type F is a bit misplaced, usually, and stems mostly from the fact that it was originally formulated for the very old "Cruise-o-Matic" and earlier Ford transmissions which used bronze clutch plates. Since the last of these were used in the early 60's, there is now not a great deal of practical use for the separate type F standard anymore. When used in non metallic clutches, the friction character of the fluid could lead to a "slip-grab" type of engagement, which would mostly go unnoticed in an automatic transmission because the clutches engage quite quickly, anyway. But, if it happens in a wet clutch application such as a motorcycle, would probably be objectionable, and cause clutch chatter. Then again, if it doesn't... Otherwise, relative to the old type A fluid that was used by everyone but Ford in the 50's and 60's, the fluid was lighter, and designed to give a sharper shift feel, whereas type A was intended to produce softer, less obvious shifts. It was common for GM and Chrysler TorqueFlite owners to use type F in order to crispen things up some. Dexron II, however, was a lighter fluid than type A, as are the succeeding Dexron III ATF's, and there is currently not that much difference in the old type F and the current Dexron III/Mercon spec, save for the frictional characteristics.

Nice post on chain tension in the General, BTW.

  • DigilubeJay

Posted August 14, 2006 - 03:28 AM


I don't think you will find any difference in shear strength between Dexron/Mercon fluids and TypeF.
TypeF fluid was used in all Ford automatic trannys up until 1977, and in some until 1980.

The frictional charctoristics are precisely why we want to use the typeF in a wetclutch bike. TypeF allows for the coefficient of friction to be high when the revs are lower, which makes for a very positive shift down low. Dexron fluid is designed to do just the opposite of TypeF. And the difference is noticible.

I'm not really going to argue too hard about using ATF in a bike. For sure it is not the most robust fluid that can be used. And I would not use it in a 4T engine of any sort. It simply does not have the Extremem Pressure additives that are needed for the rough service of a valved engine.
BUT...I use it in all 2T's for a few reasons...for one it is very good at fighting heat degredation. Most ATF will post a flash point that is equal to or greater than many of the high dollar synthetic oils. Fighting heat is heavy on the mind of the engineers who developed them.
Also, ATF is very good at protecting against corrosion. It fights rust very well, and is very good at protecting against sludge.
It also is very consistent as far as thickness is concerned. Many motor oils will start to get thicker when they heat up and degrade. ATF's are very good about maintaining their viscosity.
And ATF is also very consistent when used in cold weather. When other oils may thicken up so much in winter that it completely changes how the bikes shifts and feels, ATF will remain virtually the same summer or winter.
The big reason I use ATF, is because it is cheap and I can change it out every ride and it costs me very little coin.

  • grayracer513

Posted August 14, 2006 - 07:53 AM


I think you will find just such a difference, and I was working on new Fords for a living during the seventies, so I am quite familiar with what they used and didn't use.

The last brass clutch CruiseOMatic was built in the early 60's, like I said, and although a revision of that trans was built as the FMF (not related) and used into the late 70's, it had composition plates in it. The Type F requirement was, by then mostly vestigial, and needed to be maintained only to preserve the shift calibration as built. Dealers often substituted Dexron and Dexron II with no problem.

More on ATF for those interested

  • DigilubeJay

Posted August 14, 2006 - 01:32 PM


M2C33-A/B was developed in '59, and M2C33-C/D in '61.

M2C33- F wasn't even introduced until 1967.

...so I am quite familiar with what they used and didn't use.

Yeah, that's quite apparent.

  • YZ426F Rider

Posted August 14, 2006 - 02:18 PM


I just love the "what's the best oil?" threads! It's better than watching the People's Court on TV...

Has ANYONE used the Duomond Tech oils? Many of the shops around the Seattle area are pushing this stuff as the greatest oil ever produced but I think it's because they charge $9.00/qt for it. I don't know what it's chemical properties are or how it performed in any testing but what I do know is that I missed alot of shifts with it and that's all the testing I need. Switched back to Rotella.

I do however like the Duomond Tech chain lube...but then again I run a Regina ORN6 chain that lasts a long long time anyways.

  • whyzee426F

Posted August 28, 2006 - 07:58 PM


Lots of discussion about oils and changing it.

What about filters? Is it really worth $60 bucks for the Scotts stainless filter? Is the Amsoil filter any good? Are all wire mesh filters reusable created equal? Compared to say a K&N, I'm thinking the K&N would filter out more stuff than a mesh filter.

So what will aluminum clutch specs wear away at first, the rod bearing?

Thanks!

Visit the ThumperTalk Store for the lowest prices on motorcycle / ATV parts and accessories - Guaranteed
  • dangwartz

Posted September 24, 2006 - 10:56 AM


Not add further confusion. I came across this link while I was surfing.
It's a link to Stefan Everts bike. Take a look at the Technical suplier list and the lubricants. They claim to use Yamalube on Everts factory bike.

http://everts.yamaha...e_technical.asp

  • srhines67

Posted November 26, 2006 - 11:31 PM


Again, what about Motul products. I have been running Motul 10/40 Transoil in my YZ250 2T. They claim to have the magic Esters whatever the heck that is. How about their 5100 20/50 blend also.

Gray or Jay, any test results or real world advice?

Thanks in advance.

This thread must live on. I cannot let it die.

  • dangermouse007

Posted November 27, 2006 - 05:53 AM


Ok Question for you all.. Simple please..

In the UK we pay huge prices for oil £30.00 4 litre's ($45.00 ish)...which seems very expensive compared to your prices, but if you look at car oil these can be much cheaper that bike specific oil..

can you use a 10w40w car oil in these bikes, if you are changing your oil every 2-3 rides, and if so what would be the specs to look for ie CCMC G5
JASO MA etc etc ...

Simple Please, there is some really great info here..very good thread

  • SUnruh

Posted November 27, 2006 - 06:32 AM


you can't really prove which oil is the best.
at least in 35 attempts, i have not been able to.
you can prove which ones are acceptable (very few).
with vast testing, you can prove which ones are *NOT* the best.
this is a very long list. including some of the best and most highly respected names in oil.
what is also interesting is when you call up a companies tech line and ask them about an oil and they tell you point blank it is not made to handle more than 5 hours in a motor. their $6qt seems pretty darn expensive!

  • grayracer513

Posted November 27, 2006 - 08:39 AM


In the UK we pay huge prices for oil £30.00 4 litre's ($45.00 ish)...which seems very expensive compared to your prices, but if you look at car oil these can be much cheaper that bike specific oil..

can you use a 10w40w car oil in these bikes, if you are changing your oil every 2-3 rides, and if so what would be the specs to look for ie CCMC G5
JASO MA etc etc ..

That's actually about $58ish today. Over twice what I pay for the Amsoil I use.

Faced with a real need to reduce the cost of the oil I use, I would first see if I could find a Commercial (diesel and commercial fleets) oil that I could substitute, since most of them typically use more of the older phosphorus/zinc anti-wear additives and less of the newer energy conserving, environment friendly friction reducers. As a rule, they are also made tougher than most car oils.

JASO MA is a multi-part standard, and should indicate that the oil will work with wet clutches, meets certain anti-wear standards, and holds up at least fairly well in a transmission.

There have been "car" oils that have served well, too. Some, like Mobil 1 20w-50 synthetic, are fairly expensive, though.

You asked for a simple answer, but frankly, I'm not sure there actually is one.

  • GONE1445

Posted November 27, 2006 - 10:04 AM


I use yamalube 4 stroke oil not the 4-r but the regular 4 stroke and I change it once a season and it still looks clean and doesn't seem to be broke down or watery etc

but I probably get to ride waaayyy less than most of you guys I hate you

  • dangermouse007

Posted November 27, 2006 - 03:40 PM


Thanks for your advice ....looks like its $58.00 for us in the UK then ..as always this site is a great source of information

  • YZ250F_Rider

Posted November 27, 2006 - 03:45 PM


you can't really prove which oil is the best.
at least in 35 attempts, i have not been able to.
you can prove which ones are acceptable (very few).
with vast testing, you can prove which ones are *NOT* the best.
this is a very long list. including some of the best and most highly respected names in oil.
what is also interesting is when you call up a companies tech line and ask them about an oil and they tell you point blank it is not made to handle more than 5 hours in a motor. their $6qt seems pretty darn expensive!


*sigh* I miss the old oil and wr wars. :D :worthy: :prof:

  • ridered55

Posted November 27, 2006 - 03:47 PM


The best oil is: " The kind that gets changed after every ride"

  • crh624

Posted November 27, 2006 - 07:34 PM


Great thread here... I run Amsoil in every motor I own down to my riding lawnmower! Studies aside, here is a short story; ran a small engine for 9 years on Amsoil, thinking I was using the correct recommeded oil ratio. Come to find out 9 years later, I was using less than half that (because I'm an idiot!). 9yrs!:worthy:





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