The BEST engine oil is ???? Syn vs Conv.


120 replies to this topic
  • DigilubeJay

Posted June 15, 2006 - 07:09 PM

#61

Burn another one, Cleetus.

  • grayracer513

Posted June 16, 2006 - 07:33 AM

#62

I hold my bike wide open for hours at a time in 4th, only to stop, eat, and burn greenery. I have changed the oil twice and filter once with Yamalube in 2 years

If you "burn greenery" while riding, how do you know how it runs? :bonk:

"Konkubine's Slightly Used Motorcyles" :excuseme:

There's one in every bunch.

  • srhines67

Posted June 17, 2006 - 04:29 PM

#63

Do the motorcycle specific oils have anything in them that make them better for the transmission?

  • srhines67

Posted June 17, 2006 - 04:31 PM

#64

What about Motul 5100 15/40 for 6/50 a quart? Anyone know anything about Motul?

  • Matty05

Posted June 18, 2006 - 06:22 AM

#65

What about Motul 5100 15/40 for 6/50 a quart? Anyone know anything about Motul?

motul kicks ass! It is 10w40 or 15w50. Not 15w40!

  • jfast426

Posted June 18, 2006 - 10:47 AM

#66

I use Klotz 4-stroke techniplate in my 426 just because its the best thing we sell at our dealership. We carry yamaha and suzuki oils but klotz products is the only "aftermarket oils" we keep. I have never had a problem wirh the klotz, I run dirt track witch is wide open most of the time. I change it every race and it is clean and red just like when I pour it in. I am not real crazy about yamalube R but Suzuki has a 15-50 Syn racing oil that they recomend for their sport bikes that seems to be really good. I have been wondering for a while and some of you oil guys may know, where yamalube, suzuki, or honda oem oils are made. Do the factorys make it them self or is it somthing else wrapped in a different name.

  • DigilubeJay

Posted June 18, 2006 - 04:29 PM

#67

The OEM fluids will normally be produced by blenders. These blenders will often times use the same base oils and additive packages as some of the well known shelf brands.
Mobil provides scads of folks with quality bases, and Chevron is one of the largest additive package suppliers.

Honda's oils are produced by a company called Apollo America, which is an off-shoot of Idemitsu of Japan.

  • grayracer513

Posted June 18, 2006 - 07:12 PM

#68

Do the motorcycle specific oils have anything in them that make them better for the transmission?

Some do, yes. One of the issues of using multi-grade oils formulated for engine use, as opposed to use in transmissions, is that the viscosity index improvers (VII's) added to make the oil behave as a multi-grade are physically fragile, and literally get ground up by the trans. That means that an oil that started out as a 10w-40 will no longer function as a 40 weight when it heats up.

VII's used in multi-grade gear oils are more expensive, but they can take the abuse much better, and can be added to engine oil in place of the more fragile ones typically used in car formulas. Car oils often don't use them simply because they aren't necessary in that application, and represent an extraneous expense. Amsoil MCF and MCV, and Mobil 1 MX4T and V-Twin are examples of oils that use upgraded VII's and resist sheardown better than some non-M/C oils do. The Amsoil is actually labeled for primary use as a transmission oil as well as an engine oil. The Mobil examples aren't, but appear to be up to the job.

  • srhines67

Posted June 19, 2006 - 08:14 PM

#69

I looked at the specs for Rotella on the web and it now has the CF,G,H I additives. My manual says not to use above CD. Does this mean Rotella is out now? Bummer.

  • grayracer513

Posted June 20, 2006 - 08:10 AM

#70

CD is an obsolete grade. Don't expect to be able to buy any reasonably fresh product labeled that way. There are six diesel engine service designations which are current: CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, CF-4, CF-2, and CF. All others are obsolete. Rotella can be directly used in any application specifying CD. CI-4 Plus differs from CI-4 with higher detergent requirements and better sheer stability. The shear stability typical of most good C oils is exactly what motorcycles need due to running the engine oil through the transmission, and the only thing better is an oil specifically blended for the job, like the examples I gave before.

One of the reasons C grade oils are not generally recommended for gasoline engines has to do with the additives placed in diesel engines to deal with fuel soot, which is highly abrasive. But, these dispersant's are non-lubricating components of the blend, so in the concentrations used in C oils, they are simply unnecessary for gas engines. Additionally, the additive packages for C (commercial) certification contain too much zinc and phosphorus in the form of anti-wear additives for the catalytic converters in cars. C rated oils are far better than S oils at holding and dispersing combustion byproducts and other contaminants, and at not becoming acidic.

Although C standards are changed every few years, the older standards are enhanced, not superseded, as car oils are. So, newer higher rated C oils are normally just better than older lower rated oils. A number of automotive, motorcycle, and commercial oil grades overlap, and an oil that carries a CI-4 grade will almost always be certifiable as an SG/SH, and a CI-4 oil will often qualify as a JASO MA. They don't get labeled that way, because it's expensive to do. The cost of getting an API certification for a single S motor oil formulation is from $125,000 to $300,000. The cost for C certification is $275,000 to $500,000. I'm not sure what JASO charges, but I'll bet it ain't cheap.

Visit the ThumperTalk Store for the lowest prices on motorcycle / ATV parts and accessories - Guaranteed
  • srhines67

Posted June 20, 2006 - 09:56 AM

#71

Thanks for the info again. I really don't want to spend the cash on high-end Motul or Amzoil so I think I will go for the Rotella. Now, I'm just trying to decide on their syn or regular offering.

  • srhines67

Posted June 20, 2006 - 02:33 PM

#72

I bought my first gallon of Rotella. I feel like I have a new lease on life. I bought a gallon for the price of 1 quart the exotic stuff. I have 4 bikes so this should make life a lot more affordable.

  • DigilubeJay

Posted June 21, 2006 - 02:50 AM

#73

CD is an obsolete grade. Don't expect to be able to buy any reasonably fresh product labeled that way. There are six diesel engine service designations which are current: CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, CF-4, CF-2, and CF. All others are obsolete. Rotella can be directly used in any application specifying CD. CI-4 Plus differs from CI-4 with higher detergent requirements and better sheer stability. The shear stability typical of most good C oils is exactly what motorcycles need due to running the engine oil through the transmission, and the only thing better is an oil specifically blended for the job, like the examples I gave before.

One of the reasons C grade oils are not generally recommended for gasoline engines has to do with the additives placed in diesel engines to deal with fuel soot, which is highly abrasive. But, these dispersant's are non-lubricating components of the blend, so in the concentrations used in C oils, they are simply unnecessary for gas engines. Additionally, the additive packages for C (commercial) certification contain too much zinc and phosphorus in the form of anti-wear additives for the catalytic converters in cars. C rated oils are far better than S oils at holding and dispersing combustion byproducts and other contaminants, and at not becoming acidic.

Although C standards are changed every few years, the older standards are enhanced, not superseded, as car oils are. So, newer higher rated C oils are normally just better than older lower rated oils. A number of automotive, motorcycle, and commercial oil grades overlap, and an oil that carries a CI-4 grade will almost always be certifiable as an SG/SH, and a CI-4 oil will often qualify as a JASO MA. They don't get labeled that way, because it's expensive to do. The cost of getting an API certification for a single S motor oil formulation is from $125,000 to $300,000. The cost for C certification is $275,000 to $500,000. I'm not sure what JASO charges, but I'll bet it ain't cheap.

Very nice post, gray.
I concur with everything you have stated, accept that I think that the high detergent/dispersant packages of the HDOE's can actually be of banefit to motorcycle engines, especially shared sumps. While I agree that car engines probably do not need the robust dispersant package, I feel that the high contaminant shared sump engine can greatly benefit from it by helping to keep the high contaminant content suspended.

  • grayracer513

Posted June 21, 2006 - 10:32 AM

#74

I concur with everything you have stated, accept that I think that the high detergent/dispersant packages of the HDOE's can actually be of banefit to motorcycle engines, especially shared sumps. While I agree that car engines probably do not need the robust dispersant package, I feel that the high contaminant shared sump engine can greatly benefit from it by helping to keep the high contaminant content suspended.

And I agree with that for the most part. I was simply trying to shed a little light on why manufacturers of gasoline engines tend to recommend against C oils. It ends up being a kind of generic overreaction, in a way, particularly since the dispersant levels in many of the better MA oils are somewhat higher than the typical automotive gasoline engine oil.

Readers should remember that the function of such detergents/dispersants is to gather up and suspend foreign materials and carry them to the oil filter, which is the second best place they could be.

  • srhines67

Posted June 21, 2006 - 09:59 PM

#75

Thanks all. I bought the Rotella non syn. It feels good saving money. What do you guys think. Is there really any serious benefit to the Rotella synthetic. Its 5-40 vs. 10-40. Also, does anyone know if I need to do anything special when switching from Motul syn blend to Rotella?

Thanks again.

  • DigilubeJay

Posted June 22, 2006 - 02:49 AM

#76

IMO, unless you are wanting to extend your oil change interval the synthetic may not be of much benefit. Some of the synthetic bases of the Group V catagory, particularly certain types of esters, can perform past what other base oils can and also work at the barrier level (after the fluid film has been violated). But, HDEO synthetics are actually GroupIII catagory, which are highly refined organic petroleum. They will fight heat degredation a bit better than the GroupII oil of the 15w-40's, and may help with piece of mind. But I don't think they are actually warranted.
If saving coin was a big part of your decision, stick with the 15w-40 and be confident you have a fluid that is completely suitable for the job.

  • elcamino76

Posted June 22, 2006 - 02:29 PM

#77

yeah i just picked up some rotella t syn 5-40 oil from WALLS MART, (not sure if anyone will get that), i used to run yamalube but got too expensive. jay, before switching oils is there anything need to know, do i need to change the rotella more often or on the same schedule. i will be getting the stainless oil filter soon so i also wont have to pay for oil filters all the time. thanks.

  • elcamino76

Posted June 23, 2006 - 03:52 PM

#78

well.........i guss everyone was fed up with this thread. awh well....

  • kid on a 426

Posted June 23, 2006 - 06:00 PM

#79

i will be getting the stainless oil filter soon so i also wont have to pay for oil filters all the time. thanks.

Stock oil filters and oem's are reusable.

  • elcamino76

Posted June 24, 2006 - 06:07 AM

#80

thats true but how many times can you reuse them and how well do they perform after multiple cleanings...im going with the stailnless oil filter just because..





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