Nitrogen in Rear Shock. Can air be used?


51 replies to this topic
  • jamieyz426f01

Posted April 20, 2006 - 02:38 PM

#21

So are there 'alternative' places you can charge your shock up other than a M/C shop?


you could allways buy one of these and charge you mates:lol:

  • beezer

Posted April 20, 2006 - 03:17 PM

#22

I always used methane.

You have to eat chilli to make the right pressure though.

  • grayracer513

Posted April 20, 2006 - 03:25 PM

#23

Pure Nitrogen is an inert gas, meaning it does not change state very easily or chemically react with other materials very easy. :thumbsup:

There's that statement again. It's still just as inaccurate as ever. Nitrogen is not an inert gas. True inert gases such as helium, neon, argon, krypton, xenon, and radon will not react in any way with any other element. At all. Period.

The second half of your statement, "it does not change state very easily or chemically react with other materials very easy (sic)", is true with respect to nitrogen, but is an improper definition of inert gases. Inert gases, again, do not react or combine chemically with other elements. Nitrogen is better called "inactive". It does not react readily, even with oxygen, and requires extremes of heat, pressure, or other coercion to get involved in a chemical reaction that results in a compound bearing it as a component element. However, nitrogen does exist in thousands of commonly occurring compounds, such as nitrates, nitrides, acids, ad infinitum. Ever hear of anything like argon oxide? I have a bottle of it next to my sundial bearings, just in front of the horse feathers.

Going back to a shock for a moment, it's well to remember that the gas goes in a sealed chamber (the bladder), and never contacts any part of the shock mechanicals. So the corrosivity, etc., doesn't really matter. In fact, the original intent of the De Carbon type of shock (gas filled, with a seal separating the oil from the gas charge) was to eliminate shock fade resulting from foam, caused by the air in the unit mixing into the oil during vigorous operation.

  • FFRacing79

Posted April 20, 2006 - 03:32 PM

#24

I was very careful not to say inert in my reply.

  • Numskull

Posted April 20, 2006 - 04:00 PM

#25

There's that statement again. It's still just as inaccurate as ever. Nitrogen is not an inert gas. True inert gases such as helium, neon, argon, krypton, xenon, and radon will not react in any way with any other element. At all. Period.

The second half of your statement, "it does not change state very easily or chemically react with other materials very easy (sic)", is true with respect to nitrogen, but is an improper definition of inert gases. Inert gases, again, do not react or combine chemically with other elements.


You should probably be more careful with the "at all", as you have now made an erroneous statement :thumbsup: For all intensive purposes here, the word "inert" describes nitrogen very well. Had know idea you were a chemical engineer. If so your statement is wrong anyways. :thumbsup:

Helium and neon are the only true elemental inert gases, because they do not form any true chemical compounds, unlike the heavier noble gases (argon, krypton, xenon and radon).

Nitrogen is referred to as molecular inert gas in the scientific community.

Nitrogen is considered an inert gas because of its valence shell and its extreme stable state. But grayracer you are correct in all technicality, I will call it a semi-inert gas if you will sleep better :confused:

  • Frostbite

Posted April 20, 2006 - 04:13 PM

#26

I use argon because I have argon. Is there anything wrong with argon?


Argon? Are you making insulated glazing units down there? We're using krypton in our windows here now, but still nitrogen in our shocks.

  • 450_rider

Posted April 20, 2006 - 04:54 PM

#27

[quote name='Numskull']
Nitrogen is considered an inert gas because of its valence shell and its extreme stable state.QUOTE]

Nitrogen has 5 electrons in its outer valence shell so wouldn't that make it more reactive to gain 3 electrons to be stable like a noble gas? Fluorine is the most active element on the periodic table besides francium.. and nitrogen is only 2 spaces away from fluorine. Correct me if iam wrong i was just wondering and thats just grade 11 chem, so iam definitely no expert.

  • treehopper

Posted April 20, 2006 - 06:56 PM

#28

I use argon because I have argon. Is there anything wrong with argon?

Knowbody knows?

  • DaveJ

Posted April 20, 2006 - 09:16 PM

#29

Well, there are two things that I have found.

One, nitrogen and outside air seem to expand at nearly the same rate when heated.

Secondly, it takes a lot more energy (BTUs) to heat a shock with nitrogen than the one filled with outside air.

Given how hot a shock can get, I think nitrogen is a wise choice.

Additionally, I do know that nitrogen is not flammable, which is why it's used in aircraft tires. The reason here is that a tire can catch fire inside the belly of the aircraft, and will burn hotter and longer when propagated by it's own supply of oxygen.

  • MotoGoalie

Posted April 21, 2006 - 06:14 AM

#30

Well now, we can see who all got A's and who got C's in chemistry. Further, we can see who was sitting in the back with thier shades on recovering from last nights bender. :thumbsup:

Visit the ThumperTalk Store for the lowest prices on motorcycle / ATV parts and accessories - Guaranteed
  • DrThumper

Posted April 21, 2006 - 06:36 AM

#31

Nitrogen is referred to as molecular inert gas in the scientific community.

:thumbsup:

....I'm in the Scientific Community and we don't refer to Nitrogen as inert. Its not. In Chemistry, nitrogen compounds and molecules are very reactive, i.e. Nitric Acid (organic chem), Amines (Biochem), Ammonia (Inorganic),etc. Almost as reactive as oxygen containing molecules. Nitrogen forms a triple covalent bond, thats a lot of energy..when its release...like nitroglycerin, nitromethane, trinitrotoluene, etc, BOOM. Nitrogen was the primary chemical in the Oklahoma City Bombing...you know...fertilizer.

If you look at a Periodic Table (like the one next to my desk) the elements on the far right column are the inert (or Noble) gases...notice nitrogen is not there. As far as the size of nitrogen and oxygen, it 'it ain't much' only a proton apart. So, yes, in theory O2 (form of oxygen in the air) is bigger than N2...by 2 protons....ooohhh....not a big difference.

  • Frostbite

Posted April 21, 2006 - 06:59 AM

#32

I've retained more about chemistry in the last few hours than I did all those years in school.

  • Fastest1

Posted April 21, 2006 - 07:15 AM

#33

Well, there are two things that I have found.

One, nitrogen and outside air seem to expand at nearly the same rate when heated.

Secondly, it takes a lot more energy (BTUs) to heat a shock with nitrogen than the one filled with outside air.

Given how hot a shock can get, I think nitrogen is a wise choice.

Additionally, I do know that nitrogen is not flammable, which is why it's used in aircraft tires. The reason here is that a tire can catch fire inside the belly of the aircraft, and will burn hotter and longer when propagated by it's own supply of oxygen.

Are you sure about this? Nitrogen, I dont think expands much at all in relation to air due to heat, though it might lessen the risk of fire (though I dont think so because the fire would be on the outside of the tire first and burn thru to receive the nitrogen). It is to lessen the risk of a blowout. The heat built up in a tire upon landing has got to be incredible if only briefly. From 0-150mph instantly with a downward/load force applied also.

  • grayracer513

Posted April 21, 2006 - 10:20 AM

#34

Whether it expands in terms of uncontained volume at the same rate that air does is not the point. The fact is that nitrogen must be compressed from a given volume to a smaller one than air to reached the same pressure. It's "squishier" if you will. Heating the gas may produce as much expansion as with air, but the pressure within the container rises less.

Numskull, please cite for me one compound containing Argon 18, Krypton 36, Xenon 54, or Radon 86. Just one.

  • MotoGoalie

Posted April 21, 2006 - 11:15 AM

#35

Argon 18, Krypton 36, Xenon 54, or Radon 86. Just one.


If I owned a motocycle manufacturing company I'd name my bikes just like that. That would be so sweet.

  • grayracer513

Posted April 21, 2006 - 12:59 PM

#36

If I owned a motocycle manufacturing company I'd name my bikes just like that. That would be so sweet.

The names do have a ring, don't they? Except I'm not sure it would be wise to name a line of motorcycles after something that does nothing. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

  • Numskull

Posted April 21, 2006 - 01:51 PM

#37

Numskull, please cite for me one compound containing Argon 18, Krypton 36, Xenon 54, or Radon 86. Just one.


xenon chloride (XeCl2)


If you look at a Periodic Table (like the one next to my desk) the elements on the far right column are the inert (or Noble) gases...notice nitrogen is not there.




Noble gases and inert gases are not exactly synonyms although some of the objects they describe overlap. "Noble gas" refers to inert elemental gases only whereas "inert gas" refers to molecular as well as elemental gases which are inert. Also "inert gas" was a formerly used term for noble gas.
An inert gas is any gas that is not reactive under normal circumstances. Unlike the noble gases an inert gas is not necessarily elemental and are often molecular gases. Like the noble gases the tendency for non-reactivity is due to the valence, the outermost electron shell, being complete in all the inert gases.

  • FZ1426

Posted April 21, 2006 - 01:57 PM

#38

Are you sure about this? Nitrogen, I dont think expands much at all in relation to air due to heat, though it might lessen the risk of fire (though I dont think so because the fire would be on the outside of the tire first and burn thru to receive the nitrogen). It is to lessen the risk of a blowout. The heat built up in a tire upon landing has got to be incredible if only briefly. From 0-150mph instantly with a downward/load force applied also.

Nitrogen pressure increases (or decreases) in relation to heat just like any other gas. In a 3000psi bottle @ 70 degrees it will change about 50 psi. per 10 degrees of temp change either direction. It is used in aircraft tires (and other applications) primarily because it will not support or propagate fire. Additionally it is more chemically stable and reduces corrosion substantially. If air is used in an aluminum shock body it will corrode leading to leakage and or failure in time.

  • Fastest1

Posted April 21, 2006 - 02:20 PM

#39

The nitrogen or air if that was used would be contained in a bladder causing no corrosion. From my experience roadracing where quite a few people filled their tires with Nitrogen, it was because the pressure remained closer to the original setting hot or cold, and it was cheap. Would a tire mounted at sea level and pressurized stay together at 30,000 ft? I dont see why a gas contained inside the tire makes any difference until the tire burned all the way thru and released the gas.

  • grayracer513

Posted April 21, 2006 - 02:22 PM

#40

xenon chloride (XeCl2)

I see that I should have said "naturally occurring compounds" containing the 5 inert gases. Xenon can be compounded with other elements, but only after artificially stripping electrons from it in the lab. There are no compounds of xenon occurring from simple reactivity, and none in nature absent intense radiation exposure, whereas nitrogen compounds are extremely commonplace in nature. Which brings us back to the original point that nitrogen is not inert.





Related Content

 
x

Join Our Community!

Even if you don't want to post, registered members get access to tools that make finding & following the good stuff easier.

If you enjoyed reading about "" here in the ThumperTalk archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join ThumperTalk today!

The views and opinions expressed on this page are strictly those of the author, and have not been reviewed or approved by ThumperTalk.