engine oil



23 replies to this topic
  • GRC

Posted January 06, 2001 - 08:13 PM

#1

Is anyone familiar with the Motul 3000 10w 40 motorcycle oil. On the bottle it says that it is motorcycle specific and it is reccommended for bikes with or without wet cluches and a intergrated gearbox. It also says that it utilizes high heat, shear stable polymers to maintain the optimum lubricating film and a superior detergent additive. It is not a synthetic oil. I was given a case of it and was wondering if it is ok to run this stuff in a 2000 WR400. I switched from Yamalube to Castrol Actevo synthetic and have not really been happy with either one and was going to try this oil any feedback will be greatly appreciated thank you.

  • ande749

Posted January 07, 2001 - 04:25 AM

#2

In what sense you weren't happy with oils you mentioned? I've been using Shell Helix Ultra to ease cold starts and have had no problems.

Ande

  • GRC

Posted January 07, 2001 - 08:14 AM

#3

The Yamalube is expensive and the local shop hardly ever has it in stock. With the kinds of riding I do it seems to break down quickly. The Castrol Actevo is a full synthetic and I feel it in particular is just to thin. I get a great deal of engine noise and it seems like quite a bit of it comes out of the vent tube off of the head. I check the fluids before every ride and I am always adding oil.

  • Scott_F

Posted January 07, 2001 - 09:03 PM

#4

Are you checking the oil immediately after running the engine?

  • Boit

Posted January 07, 2001 - 11:40 PM

#5

I seriously doubt that ANY oil will give you a magic solution to your expectations. If you have excessive mechanical noise coming from the engine, trying to quiet it with a different type of oil is only masking the problem. You should investigate that noise before it bites you. It's normal for some oil to seep from the head vent tube...and at times it will be milky white. Using a good quality non-friction modified oil, and changing it often is probably the most sensible way to go. If the engine starts making an unusual noise, don't ignore it.

  • GRC

Posted January 08, 2001 - 09:23 PM

#6

Boit I haven't been ignoring the problem. The noised seemed to start after changing to the Castrol Actevo. I change my oil every third ride because that should be anywhere from to 150 to 300 miles. The oil is checked after letting the bike warm up, placing it on a stand which holds it pretty close to level and not threading it into the frame but letting it rest on the treads. It is not just a little bit of oil coming from the vent tube but quite a bit. I was told that the synthetic oil is thinner and and will for lack of a better phrase condinsates more in the vent tube resulting in more coming from the vent tube than with a conventinal oil. I went ahead and changed to the Motul and it quited down quite a bit. This up coming weekend I'm going to tear into the top end just to check everything again. I've already had the valve clearence checked twice. I just got back in touch with a good friend of mine who built my last bike for me so I'm going down to his shop so we can go through this thing one more time. Just to see if it is the oil or maybe something else. Do you have anything in mind I should check in particular. From what I have read on the forum it is obvious that you a very knowledgeable on these types of things. Thank you in advance.

  • ande749

Posted January 09, 2001 - 01:29 AM

#7

How much do you have to add oil? Do you believe that you have to add oil because of the leaking or do you think that bike burns some oil? I keep about a 1000 km oil change interval and I've never added any oil. Only a few drops come out from the breather hose every now and then, sometimes it's clearly oil, sometimes it's more like white foam.

How much have you ridden during those two clearance checks? I did my first check/setting after about 6000 km, exhaust valves were close to the minimum clearance. I set all to the max clearance so I woudn't have to worry about them in a while. Max clearance gives some noise, but I have a very loud pipe and I use ear plugs, so I don't care. I believe that now it's about time to check them again.

I unintentionally did some serious damage to my last street bike, FZR1000, when opened the engine for maybe an inconsequential reason, therefore I don't tamper with WR except periodic maintenance now that I've got it running fine after pipe changing and cooling of the weather.

Ande

  • Boit

Posted January 09, 2001 - 03:48 AM

#8

GRC: I'll try to help you with some ideas. Keep in mind that I'm just thinking out loud and throwing out what pops into my mind without ever having heard your engine run. You didn't describe what type of noise you are hearing so it's hard to make any diagnosis on that specifically. However, from what you have stated about excessive oil being vented thru the head tube, I'm wondering if there is some obstruction in the oil return line from the head causing the oil level to buildup in the cylinder head and being vented out. Have you noticed that when you drain the oil at the crankcase that only a little comes out? Maybe a quarter of a quart at most. The frame tank holds the vast majority of the oil supply. I'm wondering if the oil is being pumped out of the crankcase, into the head, and not being returned fast enough to keep up with the oil pump and causing a low oil pressure to the lower end? This could explain a mechanical noise in that area. If you've ever heard a car engine that has been neglected and has low oil pressure, you've probably heard the loud mechanical noise that engine makes(remembering my cousin's '71 Monte Carlo). I can't think of any other reason why your engine would vent so much oil thru the head vent tube. This vent does the same thing that a PCV valve does on a car engine. Anyway, I'm kinda grabbing at straws here but if you could give a few more details on what the noise resembles and where it sounds like it orginates from , that might help. Maybe some other guys have some ideas or hints.

[This message has been edited by Boit (edited 01-09-2001).]

  • ande749

Posted January 09, 2001 - 04:39 AM

#9

Originally posted by Boit:
...I'm wondering if there is some obstruction in the oil return line from the head causing the oil level to buildup in the cylinder head and being vented out.


Is there any particular return line from the head? I thought that oil returns through the cam chain hole.

CRC: I assume that you don't have too much oil in the engine... Excessive oil comes out throug breather hose also. I check the oil level few minutes after a ride.

Ande

  • GRC

Posted January 09, 2001 - 08:30 PM

#10

ande749
I did the first check around 500 miles and the next one around 1200 miles. The oil will be at the top mark when I add it and after around an hour of riding it will be close to the bottom mark. I have a Works Connection skid plate on my bike and it will cover from the vent hose to the bottom frame supports by the peg. I don't know if the oil is foamy or not because that area will be covered with sand and dirt from riding.

Boit,
As far as the oil goes it is probably 60/40 frame to case. The noise is coming from the top part of the top end. It doesn't sound like the timing is off or that the timing chain has any slack in it. I can't help but think it has to do with the valves. I know their will be some top end noise from these thumpers but it seems it is excessive. I would rather safe than sorry. I don't want to put money into the motor espically after the 4th gear wide open parting of myself and the bike I had last Saturday.

P.S. If you ever break your rear brake pedal the replacement cost is $120.00.

Visit the ThumperTalk Store for the lowest prices on motorcycle / ATV parts and accessories - Guaranteed
  • ande749

Posted January 10, 2001 - 01:01 AM

#11

Originally posted by GRC:
The oil will be at the top mark when I add it and after around an hour of riding it will be close to the bottom mark.


How soon after a ride do you check the level? Wait for about 5 ... 10 minutes and check the level then. I've noticed that right after a ride the level may seem low. I just checked mine 20 minutes after a ride and the level was to the top.

I all that oil comes out from the hose, you should be able to smell the oil. Your bike doesn't smoke, does it?

Large valve clearances causes ticking noise. When I previously set the exhaust valve clearances from minimum to maximum I could clearly hear the noise. I think having some noise due max clearance is better than no clearance and no noise at all.

Ande

  • Guest_Guest_*

Posted January 10, 2001 - 08:02 AM

#12

As far as I recall, the manual suggests checking the oil level immediately after stopping the engine when it is fully warmed up.

If you're registering low when hot, then I'd say that you are low!!

Mike

  • Boit

Posted January 10, 2001 - 07:21 PM

#13

I studied my manual's lubrication diagram and am now quite confused. It shows the flow direction from the frame tank going through the coarse screen, to the oil pump, through the filter, then going to a "T" behind the cylinder where it is directed to the main axle/drive axle and then up to the cylinder head. This is where I get lost. It shows the flow to lubricate the intake cam first, and then to go on to the exhaust cam. From here, it shows no flow. Well, where the hell does it go? Does it free-flow to the cam chain cavity as Ande suggests? It also shows a line at the bottom of the crankcase on the left side that returns the oil to the top of the frame tank. How does it get forced up there? I gotta know!

  • Boit

Posted January 10, 2001 - 07:23 PM

#14

I studied my manual's lubrication diagram and am now quite confused. It shows the flow direction from the frame tank going through the coarse screen, to the oil pump, through the filter, then going to a "T" behind the cylinder where it is directed to the main axle/drive axle and then up to the cylinder head. This is where I get lost. It shows the flow to lubricate the intake cam first, and then to go on to the exhaust cam. From here, it shows no flow. Well, where the hell does it go? Does it free-flow to the cam chain cavity as Ande suggests? It also shows a line at the bottom of the crankcase on the left side that returns the oil to the top of the frame tank. How does it get forced up there? I gotta know!


Sorry about this double post....not sure how or why I did that. THE FAQ section is wrong....it won't let me delete my own post. Unless, I'm doing it wrong.

[This message has been edited by Boit (edited 01-10-2001).]

  • uplate

Posted January 10, 2001 - 08:27 PM

#15

Boit, at least we think of you as more of a moto geek than a web geek. It was said that he checks the oil with the dipstick resting on the threads. Is this correct?

  • Scott_F

Posted January 10, 2001 - 08:49 PM

#16

Boit, if I am not mistaken, I think the oil pump is a two stage design, with one half circulating through the engine, and the other half pumping out the sump to the frame reservoir.

  • Boit

Posted January 11, 2001 - 12:39 AM

#17

Uplate: Thanks, being a moto geek is what I aspire to.. :)

ScottF: Good observation. As I was researching this, it pointed more and more to the pump doing the actual return to the frame reservoir. Obviously, the pump couldn't possibly push the oil thru the cams and then allow the oil to cascade thru the cam chain cavity only to be pushed again from the bottom of the cam chain sprocket(on the crankshaft) sump back up that long line to the frame reservoir. Yes, the pump could easily pump oil all the way thru the cam oiling passages, but once the oil is allowed to free-flow, the pressure is lost. To get the oil back up to the frame tank, it has to either have a secondary stage pump as Scott F mentions, or, the oil is always encased in passages or lines that make the pump always provide locomotion or they will cavitate and not pump. What I'm saying is that an oil pump needs a certain amount of resistance for it to work properly. I work professionally with many different pump designs. There is also another vent tube(?) next to the larger vent tube on the cylinder head. This smaller tube goes to the top of the frame oil tank reservoir. I can't find any mention of this tube in the manual ....wonder what the hell its for? I like this thread since I've never run into this problem before and now, hopefuly, I will learn quite a bit more about the oiling design of this engine. It made me think.


Oh, by the way, yes, the oil level should be checked by NOT threading the dipstick back in...it should be just stuck in and rested against the first threads...kinda work it back and forth until it just starts to thread in but not catch. What I do is turn the dipstick backwards until it drops into that certain niche...like it is lined up to start tightening. Know what I mean? Of course, the engine has to be run for several minutes to get an accurate reading.

[This message has been edited by Boit (edited 01-11-2001).]

  • Hick

Posted January 11, 2001 - 09:01 AM

#18

Boit,

Relax. Breathe deeply. :)

There are two pumps, both on the same shaft, driven by clutch gear via an idler gear. The outer is an impeller type and the other is similar to an automotive type, almost like a roots style air pump (what is the correct terminology for this type of pump?). Smaller breather hose on the head vents the oil res so oil will gravity flow to pump and/or so inner pump won’t encounter backpressure in reservoir.

Oil goes from res to impeller (or outer) pump to filter. Here it branches out for the first time, part goes through a passage in filter cover and then case to the (hollow) crank (which fits in a seal in the case cover) to oil the rod bearings before draining to cases. The other part goes to that chrome pipe or manifold thing on right side of motor. This branches it again, part goes down to tranny into a transverse mounted copper tube with pinholes that feed gears on countershaft. This copper tube then dumps what’s left into the hollow main (clutch) shaft on the left side of the motor by the clutch linkage, this oils the gears on the main shaft and then the clutch before draining to cases. The upper branch of the chrome delivery pipe goes up to the head and through integral passages which oil both cams. The oil then lubes the buckets and drains into the cases.

From the cases it is pumped by “inner” pump which picks up oil via a pickup screen and forces oil through a passage in the cases to the return line on left side of motor next to the gear pos. indicator. Voila. All is well as long as the inner pump can keep up with impeller pump. I’m guessing it pumps more volume at the same rpm (they will be spinning at same speed) to prevent oil starvation OR the cases filling up with so much oil that it gets blown out breather or by rings.

So I guess in the wet sump race motors they fill the cases with as much oil as won’t interfere w/ crank rotation and route the return pump to the impeller pump somehow OR they eliminate the second pump and somehow route the pickup to the impeller pump.

[This message has been edited by Hick (edited 01-11-2001).]

  • Scott_F

Posted January 11, 2001 - 09:47 AM

#19

Hick, thanks for filling out my rather brief answer. You have obviously given this much thought. :)

  • Boit

Posted January 11, 2001 - 04:26 PM

#20

I'm OK now... :)


Hick: Got any theories about why
GRC's bike loses so much oil? His is the only post describing this problem and I'm very curious as to the cause.




 
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