Help with new QS on 650R


18 replies to this topic
  • wildchubby

Posted March 20, 2006 - 05:33 PM

#1

Well I finally was fed up with the lag off idle on the stock carb on my '05 XR650R so I ordered the Edelbrock and I got a question about it.

After installing the carb and making adjustments to the idle screw I can not fire the bike up without any problems. The problem is during the first test ride the lag of Idle is horrible. It is almost not ridealbe as is. So far I have turned the adjusted the richness 4 turns to the left from the stock position.

Any idea's on how much I should have to turn it out?

Also I have a problem with the rev's hanging and taking a long time to come back to idle?

Any idea's on this?

Thanks,
WC

  • frankstr

Posted March 21, 2006 - 05:37 AM

#2

Have you got rid of the restricted intake manifold, changed the exhaust, how are the throttle cables.... :thumbsup:

  • creeky

Posted March 21, 2006 - 06:35 AM

#3

You say that you adjusted the needle by turning the adjuster to the left. Read the instructions carefully, turning the adjuster clockwise (right) richens the mixture, counterclockwise (left) is lean. If you have not done the mods to the exhaust, intake and air filter, you will not get maximum performance increase from the carb. The hanging idle and throttle lag that you describe indicates a lean condition, maybe a leak in the intake. Check the connection where the carb is clamped in the intake adapter and the connection between the adapter and the head for air leakage. I have used Edelbrocks on 5 bikes that I have owned, improved performance and starting every time.

  • wildchubby

Posted March 21, 2006 - 07:22 AM

#4

Thanks for the input.

I turned the dial 4 clicks to the left per a tech support conversation with Edelbrock. I originally had a hard time keeping it at idle even after turning more than 3 turns on the idle adjustment. After I adjusted the dial 4 clicks I could sustain an idle at about 2+ idle turns.

I have the stock exhaust drilled out, HRC intake boot, and Ive pulled the plastic plugs behind the air filter. And I am still using the stock air filter.

I have rechecked the intake boot and it appears correctly seated and tight.

I plan on getting a new spark plug and UNI air filter today and see how it works.

  • qadsan

Posted March 21, 2006 - 08:09 AM

#5

...
Also I have a problem with the rev's hanging and taking a long time to come back to idle?...


That's a classic symptom of running too lean.

Once you the needle is dialed in, then you can fine tune the accelerator pump. Off idle throttle response under load should be noticibly better than the stock carb.

  • wildchubby

Posted March 21, 2006 - 12:48 PM

#6

Update: I spoke with Edelbrock support and the main problem was the float height. After I raised the amount of fuel allowed into the bowl my idle problems are solved. So now on to fine tuning the needle. I believe I have it set correctly however the RPM's still do not drop as quickly as I would have expected. Not at all as bad as before but still an issue.

After a short ride around the neighborhood I only experienced lag off idle once out of 1st gear. I am headed out right now for a longer ride.

The one issue I notice is that there seems to be a loss in mid range power. Would this suggest a lean condition?

Thanks again.
WC

  • wildchubby

Posted March 22, 2006 - 05:04 PM

#7

Another update: I never got out for a complete test ride yesterday but today Ive got more problems.

When trying to start the bike cold i have to turn the idle to the right about 1 1/2 turns for the bike to start and keep and idle. Once its warmed up the idle is way high so I turn it back down. I still notice the RPM's sticking when letting off the throttle.

Any idea's on what to tune next?

  • Old_Man_Time

Posted March 22, 2006 - 05:18 PM

#8

Another update: I never got out for a complete test ride yesterday but today Ive got more problems.

When trying to start the bike cold i have to turn the idle to the right about 1 1/2 turns for the bike to start and keep and idle. Once its warmed up the idle is way high so I turn it back down. I still notice the RPM's sticking when letting off the throttle.

Any idea's on what to tune next?


Two interacting problems may be at the heart of whats going on.

1. The spuirt adjustment located on the right side of the carb may be too rich. I had to back my squirt out 2 1/2 turns (turn it counter clock wise to make squirt less). Until I did this I had a slight bog off idle. The bog is caused because the squirt creates a too rich condition. It started getting blubbery and dying in slow tech conditions until I did this.

2. Next, you may still be too lean on the needle. Once the squirt problem is addressed the needle may need to be richened. Try 12 or 13 clicks out from full rich.

3. It should start better but I personly always turn my idle up when I'm starting the bike and then turn it down after the bike warms up.

  • wildchubby

Posted March 22, 2006 - 05:34 PM

#9

Two interacting problems may be at the heart of whats going on.

1. The spuirt adjustment located on the right side of the carb may be too rich. I had to back my squirt out 2 1/2 turns (turn it counter clock wise to make squirt less). Until I did this I had a slight bog off idle. The bog is caused because the squirt creates a too rich condition. It started getting blubbery and dying in slow tech conditions until I did this.

2. Next, you may still be too lean on the needle. Once the squirt problem is addressed the needle may need to be richened. Try 12 or 13 clicks out from full rich.

3. It should start better but I personly always turn my idle up when I'm starting the bike and then turn it down after the bike warms up.



Just to make sure I understand what your talking about. The squirt adjustment is the gold screw on the lower right side of the carb. Its external adjustment screw, I just want to do this right the first time.

Ive got a question about the number clicks from full rich. How do you determine when you are at 0 clicks full rich? This may be a dumb question but will the dial stop turning to the right hence 0?

Just checking before I go do this.

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  • Old_Man_Time

Posted March 22, 2006 - 05:50 PM

#10

Yes gold screw with a lock nut and rubber oring to prevent fuel seaping. Back off the lock nut. Now turn in clockwise until it gently seats. Count how many turns it took. That is full squirt. Now back it out 2 1/4 to 2 1/2 turns and gently tighten the lock nut.

Yes the needle will stop when turning it clockwise. That is the full rich position. Remember to count how many clicks it took to get it to full rich. To fine tune it take the bike out and get it up to about 50 mph. Then immediately let off the thottle. If you here popping as it slows down under engine compression then you are still too lean. If when you wack the throttle you get black smoke and or a lot of soot in your tail pipe you are too rich.

You need a record of what your old setting were because you already know they don't work. You can fine tune from the basic settings I gave you.

On the squirt you can turn it by 1/4 turns in until you get the off idle bog to return. Then back it out 1/4 turns until the bog is gone.

The book that came with your carb gives you general diagnoses information on the last pages.

  • wildchubby

Posted March 22, 2006 - 06:23 PM

#11

Yes gold screw with a lock nut and rubber oring to prevent fuel seaping. Back off the lock nut. Now turn in clockwise until it gently seats. Count how many turns it took. That is full squirt. Now back it out 2 1/4 to 2 1/2 turns and gently tighten the lock nut.

Yes the needle will stop when turning it clockwise. That is the full rich position. Remember to count how many clicks it took to get it to full rich. To fine tune it take the bike out and get it up to about 50 mph. Then immediately let off the thottle. If you here popping as it slows down under engine compression then you are still too lean. If when you wack the throttle you get black smoke and or a lot of soot in your tail pipe you are too rich.

You need a record of what your old setting were because you already know they don't work. You can fine tune from the basic settings I gave you.

On the squirt you can turn it by 1/4 turns in until you get the off idle bog to return. Then back it out 1/4 turns until the bog is gone.

The book that came with your carb gives you general diagnoses information on the last pages.



Before I turned the needle height to full rich I was 16 out. I then adjusted it to 13 from full rich. The squirt adjustment was 2 1/2 out. I adjusted it to 2 1/4. These two changes made a world of difference. The RPM's are not sticking at all and with a short ride around the block I had zero lag off idle. I immediately noticed more punch in 1st and 2nd. Hopefully the leaness from before was the culprit to hard starting when cold.

I hope take it out for a proper test ride tomorrow night.

I really appreciate the help with this. I'll update this post tomorrow night after the ride.

Thanks again,
WC

  • Mudshark

Posted March 22, 2006 - 07:08 PM

#12

......... sounds to me like you guys have more crap with the new carbs than
the stock ones?? :thumbsup:
once my stock carb was setup right, I have no off idle bogging or idle issues.
But I too, like old_man_time also do the idle faster to start trick, but only
about 1/2 a turn in and back it out once it's hot.

  • Old_Man_Time

Posted March 22, 2006 - 09:59 PM

#13

......... sounds to me like you guys have more crap with the new carbs than
the stock ones?? :thumbsup:
once my stock carb was setup right, I have no off idle bogging or idle issues.
But I too, like old_man_time also do the idle faster to start trick, but only
about 1/2 a turn in and back it out once it's hot.


Most stock carbs can be set up to run pretty well in almost any conditions. This is not true of all the stock carbs. My second XR650R had all kinds of carb problems and I could not get it dialed in.

You really have to ride a bike with an Edelbrock to appreciate the differences it gives you. I rode the XR650R with the stock carb for 4 years and then switched when I couldn't get my second XR650R's stock carb dialed in. Edelbrocks do not have any jets so all adjustments other than the float are made from outside the carb. Which is nice. Also no matter how good you have your stock carb dialed you will have a slight hesitation which you overcome by rolling on the throttle for just a brief moment. Some people have done this for so long that they are unaware they are doing it. They think that they can whack their throttle full open from an idle and there will be no hesitation. The reasons is they don't realize the bike trained them to roll on the carb for just a second. With a properly adjusted Edelbrock you simply whack the throttle and it goes no hesitation and no rolling on the throttle from idle. The acceleration is smoother too.

I like a dialed in stock carb but prefer an Edelbrock.

  • ztsd

Posted March 23, 2006 - 05:18 AM

#14

Old_Man_Time: I have an Edelbrock coming. Do you know off hand what changes I’ll need if I run the Baja Design Baffle with it? Completely uncorked otherwise including the drilled cover.

  • Old_Man_Time

Posted March 23, 2006 - 05:55 AM

#15

Old_Man_Time: I have an Edelbrock coming. Do you know off hand what changes I’ll need if I run the Baja Design Baffle with it? Completely uncorked otherwise including the drilled cover.


My riding partner runs the Baja designs baffle with about the same settings I mentioned above. He might have it set at 14 clicks out from full rich. You just have to fine tune and you will be ok. Start with the settings mentioned above and just tune from there if you need to.

I also tried the Baja baffle but because I also have the Stage 1 Hotcam I didn't get it dialed in he way I like so I removed the baffle. You are talking about the Baja Designs baffle that slips inside the Power Up baffle from Honda, aren't you? The one that helps quiet the bike down? Like I said it works on my buddy's bike just fine. There is only a slight power loss because of it but the bike truly runs quieter which you already know since you are running it.

  • creeky

Posted March 23, 2006 - 06:39 AM

#16



I like a dialed in stock carb but prefer an Edelbrock.


I'm on the same page. I have used the same Edelbrock on two XR600s, an XR628 and now on a '00 WR400 (a noted carb guru told me that the carb would not work on the WR...this provided me with a huge incentive to make it work, I did get it dialed in with very little modification). My son has used Edelbrock on two BRPs and recently on a project '01 XR400 that we are working on. In every case the Edelbrock has been a large improvement in starting, throttle response and performance. Adjustments for temperature and altitude are quick and easy, rejetting and carb disassembly are a thing of the past. No, I am not an Edelbrock salesman, just thoroughly convinced that they are the answer.

  • Mudshark

Posted March 23, 2006 - 05:55 PM

#17

Most stock carbs can be set up to run pretty well in almost any conditions. This is not true of all the stock carbs. My second XR650R had all kinds of carb problems and I could not get it dialed in.
I like a dialed in stock carb but prefer an Edelbrock.


I hear you... I guess I hardly ever "come up off idle" while riding... usually
going balls to the wall. Tight woodsy stuff is where it would effect you most
I should imagine. Luckly we don't have too many woods around Dallas :thumbsup:
Still..one day when I'm rich and famous :bonk: I'll spring for one, right
now I guess I've been lucky with my stock carb so far.
I would love to ride a pig that has one to see if it's worth the bucks.
It would be a choice between the carb or a Scotts steering damper... right
now I need the damper more I think. There is little sense in getting it to
go faster quicker, when I'm stuggling to hang onto it as it is :confused:
But I know who I'll come to for help when I do get one :thumbsup:

  • Old_Man_Time

Posted March 23, 2006 - 06:31 PM

#18

I hear you... I guess I hardly ever "come up off idle" while riding... usually
going balls to the wall. Tight woodsy stuff is where it would effect you most
I should imagine. Luckly we don't have too many woods around Dallas :thumbsup:
Still..one day when I'm rich and famous :bonk: I'll spring for one, right
now I guess I've been lucky with my stock carb so far.
I would love to ride a pig that has one to see if it's worth the bucks.
It would be a choice between the carb or a Scotts steering damper... right
now I need the damper more I think. There is little sense in getting it to
go faster quicker, when I'm stuggling to hang onto it as it is :confused:
But I know who I'll come to for help when I do get one :thumbsup:


I agree, if your stock carb is dialed in nice and it's a choice between Edelbrock and a stabilizer I would get the stabilizer too. In fact that is what I did when I had my bike dialed in with the stock carb I got a stabilizer. I went with the GPR but someday I plan on getting a Scotts too.

  • ztsd

Posted March 23, 2006 - 10:50 PM

#19

My riding partner runs the Baja designs baffle with about the same settings I mentioned above. He might have it set at 14 clicks out from full rich. You just have to fine tune and you will be ok. Start with the settings mentioned above and just tune from there if you need to.

I also tried the Baja baffle but because I also have the Stage 1 Hotcam I didn't get it dialed in he way I like so I removed the baffle. You are talking about the Baja Designs baffle that slips inside the Power Up baffle from Honda, aren't you? The one that helps quiet the bike down? Like I said it works on my buddy's bike just fine. There is only a slight power loss because of it but the bike truly runs quieter which you already know since you are running it.

Yup, that’s the one! I should have the Edelbrock in a week or so. I’m really looking forward to installing it. Hope the extra top end from the carb helps offset the baffle loss, but heck, there’s so much power on tap that I don’t mind a little loss. Probably good for traction with the K270 tires... Thanks again for the help!





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