Will a XR600 CDI box work on an XR650L?


148 replies to this topic
  • rmhrc630

Posted May 02, 2007 - 12:01 AM

#41

I don't see why you couldn't run a XR600 CDI, but it will take a lot of changes. First you will need a XR600 stator. I have held both a XR600 and a XR650L stator but not at the same time. If I remember correctly they are more or less the same size. You need the XR600 stator because it has the high voltage exciter coil that powers the CDI. If a XR600 stator will not mechanically fit, you can forget this idea. That exciter coil puts out over 100 volts when the engine is running. About 60 or so volts is needed to produce a spark good enough to start the engine. A stock XR600 stator might not have enough of a lighting coil to power the headlight and recharge the battery. A high output stator would be a good idea.

The pulse coil on the right side of the crankcase is a different part number between the two bikes. It might just be a different connector, or it might have different electrical characteristics.

The ignition coil is the same part number between the 600 and the 650L. No worries here.

There is a lot of wiring harness hacking that would need to be done in order to get this to work. The 650L regulator would have to go and be replaced with a dual sport kit type DC regulator. The connectors on the XR600 CDI are pretty specialized. The easiest way to get one would be to get an entire XR600 wiring harness and use what you will need to connect everything.




hey Cl!!!

I actually swapped between CDIs a few weeks ago - the plug is the same but the wiring is different so I had to pull pins - it was like wiring a bomb!!!

But I did it - they are both very simple CDIs - they need power and they need to send the signal

I could do the pin out for you guys to show you the relativities.

Of course I run essentially 600R architecture - stator plus flywheel but I also run a 650L regulator just to confuse you!!!

My bike is very much a hybrid.

Bottom line is atm I cant estart my bike with the 600R - 10 minutes and a quick rewire to accomodate the 650l CDI and I get it back but I lose big power.

  • rmhrc630

Posted May 02, 2007 - 12:11 AM

#42

I don't see why you couldn't run a XR600 CDI, but it will take a lot of changes. First you will need a XR600 stator. I have held both a XR600 and a XR650L stator but not at the same time. If I remember correctly they are more or less the same size. You need the XR600 stator because it has the high voltage exciter coil that powers the CDI. If a XR600 stator will not mechanically fit, you can forget this idea. That exciter coil puts out over 100 volts when the engine is running. About 60 or so volts is needed to produce a spark good enough to start the engine. A stock XR600 stator might not have enough of a lighting coil to power the headlight and recharge the battery. A high output stator would be a good idea.

Thinking now I think for you 650L guys you are going to need a stepper to run higher voltage to the 600R CDI. Dave - your idea will work I think.

So it would go battery - stepper - 600R CDI.

That will get round the lack of exciter coil.

You cant swap flwyheels or stators - they simply are not mechanically compatible. Not an option ever.



S

The pulse coil on the right side of the crankcase is a different part number between the two bikes. It might just be a different connector, or it might have different electrical characteristics.

CL - my quest is to have this part rewound so my estart works off the 600R CDI.

The ignition coil is the same part number between the 600 and the 650L. No worries here.

There is a lot of wiring harness hacking that would need to be done in order to get this to work. The 650L regulator would have to go and be replaced with a dual sport kit type DC regulator. The connectors on the XR600 CDI are pretty specialized. The easiest way to get one would be to get an entire XR600 wiring harness and use what you will need to connect everything.


Too true!!! My 628 is an amalagim of 650L/600R/custom wiring so the farker all works!!!

  • cleonard

Posted May 02, 2007 - 09:06 AM

#43

For something even more complicated...

The 600R CDI needs at least 60 volts AC to fire, but the 650L only has the 12 volt lighting stator. You need to get the higher voltage somehow. The 650L CDI uses a small high frequency inverter to make the high voltage. I'm about 99% sure that this inverter is what fails in the 650L CDI.

A few years ago the exciter coil on my 600R failed. I rewound it myself. It works great. However I was concerned that my not so neat winding might fail. So I looked for a way to power the CDI even if the exciter coil failed. I tried a few differnet type of inverters. None worked well. Your standard 12 volt to 120AC inverter has too low of a frequency. Sixty Hz only allows for 3600 RPM which is no good. It is simple though, just wire the output of the inverter to the CDI through a 200 to 300 ohm resistor. I also tried some higher frequency inverters made for cold cathode lamps like the ones in a laptop. They put out too much voltage and not enough current. Then I tried a transformer from the lighting coil. I used a small 12 volt AC wall wort transformer. Connect the 12 volt side to the stator and the 110 volt side to the CDI. This worked great, and I carry one for emergencies. However, it would not work for normal use. The transformer is made for 60 Hz and the few hundred Hz that the stator makes will overheat it.

I think that a small audio transformer might work great. I have not yet played with it though. An audio transformer will take the higher frequencies that the stator produces. It will take a couple properly chosen resistors to prevent overheating.

  • XR650L_Dave

Posted May 02, 2007 - 02:09 PM

#44

For something even more complicated...

The 600R CDI needs at least 60 volts AC to fire, but the 650L only has the 12 volt lighting stator. You need to get the higher voltage somehow. The 650L CDI uses a small high frequency inverter to make the high voltage. I'm about 99% sure that this inverter is what fails in the 650L CDI.

A few years ago the exciter coil on my 600R failed. I rewound it myself. It works great. However I was concerned that my not so neat winding might fail. So I looked for a way to power the CDI even if the exciter coil failed. I tried a few differnet type of inverters. None worked well. Your standard 12 volt to 120AC inverter has too low of a frequency. Sixty Hz only allows for 3600 RPM which is no good. It is simple though, just wire the output of the inverter to the CDI through a 200 to 300 ohm resistor. I also tried some higher frequency inverters made for cold cathode lamps like the ones in a laptop. They put out too much voltage and not enough current. Then I tried a transformer from the lighting coil. I used a small 12 volt AC wall wort transformer. Connect the 12 volt side to the stator and the 110 volt side to the CDI. This worked great, and I carry one for emergencies. However, it would not work for normal use. The transformer is made for 60 Hz and the few hundred Hz that the stator makes will overheat it.

I think that a small audio transformer might work great. I have not yet played with it though. An audio transformer will take the higher frequencies that the stator produces. It will take a couple properly chosen resistors to prevent overheating.



I believe you can also feed the CDI with DC, or higher-freq AC. Just so long as the voltage is high enough, and the current is sufficient to charge the cap before the next crank revolution.

Don't forget, the spark fires once per crank revolution, because the timing pickup is on the crank, not the cam.

Dave

  • cleonard

Posted May 02, 2007 - 02:32 PM

#45

I believe you can also feed the CDI with DC, or higher-freq AC. Just so long as the voltage is high enough, and the current is sufficient to charge the cap before the next crank revolution.

Don't forget, the spark fires once per crank revolution, because the timing pickup is on the crank, not the cam.

Dave


DC will not work. I tried that first. The device that fires the CDI is a SCR and if fed DC it stays on. It is a semiconductor that is like a switch. Once turned on it stays on until the current stops. That's why you need a AC source.

  • XR650L_Dave

Posted May 03, 2007 - 09:20 AM

#46

DC will not work. I tried that first. The device that fires the CDI is a SCR and if fed DC it stays on. It is a semiconductor that is like a switch. Once turned on it stays on until the current stops. That's why you need a AC source.



DC, how many volts did you try?

Do you have a schematic of the CDI (XRL or XR600R) ?

Dave

  • cleonard

Posted May 03, 2007 - 10:01 AM

#47

DC, how many volts did you try?

Do you have a schematic of the CDI (XRL or XR600R) ?

Dave


I think that I used about 100 volts DC with a 5000 ohm current liimiting resistor. I got only a single spark out of it and that was it. After that spark the current continued to flow until disconnected.

No schematics. Most CDI's are pretty much the same as far as the high voltage pulse generation goes, it is the advance circuitry that is different.

  • TREADMARKS

Posted May 03, 2007 - 10:40 AM

#48

There has to be a way to get the XR600 timing curve on the XRL.:applause:

  • martinfan30

Posted May 03, 2007 - 12:47 PM

#49

i propose a donation collection for R&D!!!!!:applause:

  • XR650L_Dave

Posted May 03, 2007 - 02:37 PM

#50

I think that I used about 100 volts DC with a 5000 ohm current liimiting resistor. I got only a single spark out of it and that was it. After that spark the current continued to flow until disconnected.

No schematics. Most CDI's are pretty much the same as far as the high voltage pulse generation goes, it is the advance circuitry that is different.



Ahh, forgot about that pesky holding current. Been awhile since I've dealt with stuff on the component level.

A 12VDC to 200VAC inverter as a component should not be too hard to come up with, though. Just as long as the freq is low enough the SCR turns off, and just so long the freq is high enough the cap charges before the next TDC.

Dave

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  • cleonard

Posted May 03, 2007 - 03:06 PM

#51

Ahh, forgot about that pesky holding current. Been awhile since I've dealt with stuff on the component level.

A 12VDC to 200VAC inverter as a component should not be too hard to come up with, though. Just as long as the freq is low enough the SCR turns off, and just so long the freq is high enough the cap charges before the next TDC.

Dave


It will need to be at least 150 or so Hz, but atleast 400 would be best. 60Hz works out to be 3600 RPM. That is why a common 12v to 120VAC inverter will not work. The frequency is too low.

I tried a few little inverters that I think were made for electrolumeniscent displays, but they didn't put out enough current to charge up the cap in the CDI fast enough. I got it to idle, but nothing better than that.

It doesn't have to be AC it just has to go to zero volts. A square wave DC where it is 100 volts and then 0 would work too.

  • XR650L_Dave

Posted May 03, 2007 - 03:24 PM

#52

It will need to be at least 150 or so Hz, but atleast 400 would be best. 60Hz works out to be 3600 RPM. That is why a common 12v to 120VAC inverter will not work. The frequency is too low.

I tried a few little inverters that I think were made for electrolumeniscent displays, but they didn't put out enough current to charge up the cap in the CDI fast enough. I got it to idle, but nothing better than that.

It doesn't have to be AC it just has to go to zero volts. A square wave DC where it is 100 volts and then 0 would work too.



I was thinking sq.wave might create some extra stress on the components- but a real simple filter would fix that.

Its funny, I can find a single component that does 12VDC to 200-400DC, but not an AC output.

Could always run a DC input with some kind of interrupter that would kick it off briefly after the coil fires, or re-invent the good ol' model T buzz-box!

Or maybe use the DC and just run it through a power transistor controlled by the direct stator output. That'd pulse it.

Or I could stop being so *^&%^& lazy and just build a DC-DC converter, but omit the rectification/filter stage.

Dave

  • crmc33

Posted May 04, 2007 - 03:18 AM

#53

Hi,

As some of you may know Im runnning what is basically a tuned XR650L (actually a NX650 Dominator with high compression head) in a road racer chassis in the UK. Up till now Ive been running a std XRL ignition circuit and am now keen to change this to try and gain a few HP (current engine is a 675 putting out 55HP at the back wheel).
As you probably know the std ignition pretty much kills the engines power at 7500rpm. These motors do and should rev safely upto 8000+ rpm.

Ive just been speaking to a racing ignition specialist regarding this issue and he has a few ideas up his sleeve. This would be using either a off the shelf CDI off another 125cc bike or using a programmable CDI which may work that has been previously used to good effect on BMW's.

Im visiting him next week with another system I have been given (with no wiring diagram or instructions!) to see if we can gain a few more HP. Im keen to get 60HP with the electrical mods allowing higher revs and more advanced ignition curve.

I'll keep you posted. The solution will eb dynoed and posted here.

Cheers,

Adam

  • crmc33

Posted May 21, 2007 - 02:24 AM

#54

Ive now tried the GS125 CDI and coil on my motor and it wont work without serious mods to the pick up coil position. The bike fires up but only runs for a few seconds before wetting the spark plug.
Seems that theres not enough advance on the spark.

So its back to the OE CDI.... for now........

  • TREADMARKS

Posted May 21, 2007 - 03:15 AM

#55

I wonder how many of these would have to sell, before an Ignition builder would build a run of them?

  • crmc33

Posted May 21, 2007 - 06:51 AM

#56

I will continue digging...
I had a brainwave of fitting a CB250RS CDI to the engine but then realised that it runs a centrifugal advancer with a fixed time CDI.

Since I dont have the elctric boot on my engine I may just get a XR stator and rotor and use a vortex adjustable AC cdi. The cost puts me off somewhat!

  • suharianu

Posted May 23, 2007 - 08:04 AM

#57

I took a scope, ane channel on pickup second channel on ignition pulse
plugged the values into a spread sheet this the curve xr600 98:
http://s192.photobuc...z219/suharianu/

  • suharianu

Posted May 23, 2007 - 08:07 AM

#58

second trial:

http://i192.photobuc...vance_curve.jpg

  • martinfan30

Posted May 23, 2007 - 08:20 AM

#59

wow, that is a much sharper advance curve than what the 650L feels like. hey nice job on that chart!:)
id pay well for that curve!

  • TREADMARKS

Posted May 23, 2007 - 08:41 AM

#60

wow, that is a much sharper advance curve than what the 650L feels like. hey nice job on that chart!:)
id pay well for that curve!



Sweeet job!

I whould be glad to pay as well.





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