Will a XR600 CDI box work on an XR650L?


148 replies to this topic
  • crmc33

Posted April 15, 2007 - 01:38 PM

#21

So am I right in thinking that a 600R CDI will work OK with my 650L wiring if I dont require electric start? My bike is push-start only bike anyway so Im very interested !!

I dynoed my 675 on Friday and it cracked 52.5HP with a bit more to go, but I ran out of jets:bonk: Engine is running a HSR48 Mikuni and carburates as well as the bored out VM40 (42.5mm) Mikuni at the bottom end that I was using before. I removed the accel pump rod to start with but will refit it and use this a bit at a time to see how it goes.
All the engine needs now is a good ignition system!!!

  • rmhrc630

Posted April 15, 2007 - 02:13 PM

#22

Wow this thread has gotten old... :thumbsup:

Anyway, if you want to find out where your redline is, it is simple.

Use either second or third gear.. Take the bike up to it's top speed in that gear, at redline - throttle pinned.. The pull in the clutch and see if the engine revs any higher. If it does not, then you have either reached the maximum RPM of the engine, or the rev-limiter in the CDI box. And yes, ALL modern japanese four strokes have rev-limiters built into their CDI; so you can't hurt the engine on this test, unless your bike has other mechanical problems.

You will need a friend with a bike to ride next to you to check the speed, or us a GPS on a straight road.

Download the chart found HERE

Plug in the pertinate numbers, and the chart will be correct for your bike.

:worthy:




LOB!!!!!

Can you please confirm the what how and where of people running the 400R CDI on their 600s?

  • rmhrc630

Posted April 15, 2007 - 04:34 PM

#23

So am I right in thinking that a 600R CDI will work OK with my 650L wiring if I dont require electric start? My bike is push-start only bike anyway so Im very interested !!

I dynoed my 675 on Friday and it cracked 52.5HP with a bit more to go, but I ran out of jets:bonk: Engine is running a HSR48 Mikuni and carburates as well as the bored out VM40 (42.5mm) Mikuni at the bottom end that I was using before. I removed the accel pump rod to start with but will refit it and use this a bit at a time to see how it goes.
All the engine needs now is a good ignition system!!!


CRMC - the current issues we're all grappling are the following:

1) the power source for the CDIs. XR600 - AC straight off the coils. XR650L is 12 volt from the battery. That is a major difference.

2) The volts generated from a) kicking the bike with the kickstarter (600R generates roughly 100Voltsac) and :thumbsup: turning the engine ofver with the estart button.

Even though I had my estart working on my 600R it required a 650L CDI. Big problem I discovered is the power limitation of the 650L CDI.Bieng possibly the only person to swap CDIs I can truthfully state there is a clear difference of perhaps 15-20% seat of the pants.

So I have swapped back to the 600R CDI and revereted my bike to kick start until i can work out the following:

"The amount of voltage my estart system can generate on the 600R motor which reagrd to starting volts. This will require a rewind of the exciter and pulsar coils to generate such voltage.

Stay toooooned!!!! The CDI wars continue!!!

  • WouldsAssassin

Posted April 21, 2007 - 10:28 PM

#24

I've been reading this and many other posts on the same subject with great curiosity. I had an idea the other day....

Someone posted that the CRF450 and 650R CDIs are interchangable, the only change is the rev limiter.

The 07' CRF450X is electric AND kick start. Does anybody now anything about the ignition system of the 450X? Would it be compatible with the 650L? Might it provide the hotter timing that we pig jocks are hoping for with the 600 CDI?

I could deal with the rev limiter issue with easier resolve than the current hurdle behind the 600R to 650L swap.

  • crmc33

Posted April 27, 2007 - 07:02 AM

#25

Yes, All I want is a bit more over rev for the road. The soft rev limit is killing the power at 8K just when my engine is wanting to go!
I would rev past 8.5K though due to con-rod over stress!! These will break if consistently revved this high!
...and that makes a big mess :oD

So rmhrc630, I assume form what youre saying that my bike should run fine with a XR CDI bearing in mind it has a XRL generator still on it ?

  • XR650L_Dave

Posted April 27, 2007 - 08:34 AM

#26

Yes, All I want is a bit more over rev for the road. The soft rev limit is killing the power at 8K just when my engine is wanting to go!
I would rev past 8.5K though due to con-rod over stress!! These will break if consistently revved this high!
...and that makes a big mess :oD

So rmhrc630, I assume form what youre saying that my bike should run fine with a XR CDI bearing in mind it has a XRL generator still on it ?


I'll re-state what he has said so he can correct where I'm wrong, because I'm barking up the same path.

He put an XR600R CDI on an XR650L stator, and found the XRL stator did not provide enough voltage (was that only during cranking, or always?) to the XR600R CDI. Apparently the XRL "alternator" provides less voltage than the XRR "magneto".

What we do know is that the XRL CDI takes 12VDC, and the XR600R CDI wants to see 200 or 300 or so volts AC.

After partially deconstructing an XRL CDI, I vbelieve its an AC input CDI with a 12VDC to 200VAC (or so) converter attached to the "front end". This would expalin the size diff between an XRL CDI and the XR600R CDI.


I have found a single component that will take +12V and turn it into +350VDC (or so) and I fully believe you could feed an AC CDI with DC, since all a CDI does is take the incoming voltage and run it through 2 diodes to rectify it, and feed it to the capacitor.

What I need to do is
1) get that magic part
2) get an XR600R CDI
3) run that puppy up the flagpole and see if it waves.

Dave

  • TREADMARKS

Posted April 27, 2007 - 10:39 AM

#27

I have found a single component that will take +12V and turn it into +350VDC (or so) and I fully believe you could feed an AC CDI with DC, since all a CDI does is take the incoming voltage and run it through 2 diodes to rectify it, and feed it to the capacitor.

What I need to do is
1) get that magic part
2) get an XR600R CDI
3) run that puppy up the flagpole and see if it waves.

Dave


Now that sounds like a plan.
I can't wait to see how this one turns out.:applause:

  • xr650l bum

Posted April 27, 2007 - 07:18 PM

#28

Go Dave! Please keep us informed.

  • rmhrc630

Posted April 28, 2007 - 11:19 PM

#29

I'll re-state what he has said so he can correct where I'm wrong, because I'm barking up the same path.

He put an XR600R CDI on an XR650L stator, and found the XRL stator did not provide enough voltage (was that only during cranking, or always?) to the XR600R CDI. Apparently the XRL "alternator" provides less voltage than the XRR "magneto".

What we do know is that the XRL CDI takes 12VDC, and the XR600R CDI wants to see 200 or 300 or so volts AC.

After partially deconstructing an XRL CDI, I vbelieve its an AC input CDI with a 12VDC to 200VAC (or so) converter attached to the "front end". This would expalin the size diff between an XRL CDI and the XR600R CDI.


I have found a single component that will take +12V and turn it into +350VDC (or so) and I fully believe you could feed an AC CDI with DC, since all a CDI does is take the incoming voltage and run it through 2 diodes to rectify it, and feed it to the capacitor.

What I need to do is
1) get that magic part
2) get an XR600R CDI
3) run that puppy up the flagpole and see if it waves.

Dave




Dave

Some slight corrections:

1. I started with all XR600R parts as my bike is an XR600R.

2. I fitted electric start.

3. The XR600R runs entire different electrics to the XR650L and it all starts at the stator.

XR650l stator is 3 phase. 600R is single I think.
XR650L flywheel is vastyly different eletrically to the 600R.
XR650L gains its starting power from the 12 volt battery signalling to the CDI to permit spark. The 600R gets its starting power from the kikcing motion of the bike and the pulser coil picks that up and sends a signal to the 600R CDI.

4. Now to get my bike running on estart( October 2006) the 650l CDI had to be fitted and a special wire run from the battery to the CDI to power it up. The mere motion of me pushing the button on my 600R would not generate enought electricty to power the 600R CDI becuase it has a higher starting threshold before it permits spark. This is probbaly for safety as you dont want the bike starting if you merely lean on the starter.

5. So becuase estarting was the goal with my bike I worked out that the 650L CDI was the final part of the picture - I fitted one to my 600R and it ran!!!


Update to April 2007 and I suspect the 650L CDI restricts power - substantially.

So we are now all on a quest to rig up a 600R CDI to a 650L and ensure estart works.

I did not fit 650L stator or flwyheel as they simply will not work on the 600R engine. The flwyheel has different markers and many other things that stop a simple swap from occuring.

My goal is to rewind the pulsar coil and the exciter coil so that when I pus h the buttoin the electricity that is generated is enough to release a spark to the 600R CDI.

Remember CDI - Capacitor (ie storage) Discharge - fires. So the stock 600R CDI does not build enough charge by using the electric starter as the estarter turns the motor over slower than the kick starter does.

Can this hurdle be overcome?

You betcha!!!

Stay toooned.

  • rmhrc630

Posted April 28, 2007 - 11:24 PM

#30

I'll re-state what he has said so he can correct where I'm wrong, because I'm barking up the same path.

He put an XR600R CDI on an XR650L stator, and found the XRL stator did not provide enough voltage (was that only during cranking, or always?) to the XR600R CDI. Apparently the XRL "alternator" provides less voltage than the XRR "magneto". Dave I retaained XR600 stator and wiring

What we do know is that the XRL CDI takes 12VDC, and the XR600R CDI wants to see 200 or 300 or so volts AC.Dave the 650L CDI receives 12Volt DC direct from the battery. The 600R receives 80-90 volts from the exciter coil on the stator

After partially deconstructing an XRL CDI, I vbelieve its an AC input CDI with a 12VDC to 200VAC (or so) converter attached to the "front end". This would expalin the size diff between an XRL CDI and the XR600R CDI.Dave you're partially right - the XRL CDI takes 12 volt DC from the battery and then steps it up to starting voltage - whicH I beleieve is 200-400 volts AC

I have found a single component that will take +12V and turn it into +350VDC (or so) and I fully believe you could feed an AC CDI with DC, since all a CDI does is take the incoming voltage and run it through 2 diodes to rectify it, and feed it to the capacitor.

What I need to do is
1) get that magic part
2) get an XR600R CDI
3) run that puppy up the flagpole and see if it waves.

Dave


Dave see my points above

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  • jetfuel

Posted April 29, 2007 - 07:09 AM

#31

Dave

Some slight corrections:

1. I started with all XR600R parts as my bike is an XR600R.

2. I fitted electric start.

3. The XR600R runs entire different electrics to the XR650L and it all starts at the stator.

XR650l stator is 3 phase. 600R is single I think.
XR650L flywheel is vastyly different eletrically to the 600R.
XR650L gains its starting power from the 12 volt battery signalling to the CDI to permit spark. The 600R gets its starting power from the kikcing motion of the bike and the pulser coil picks that up and sends a signal to the 600R CDI.

4. Now to get my bike running on estart( October 2006) the 650l CDI had to be fitted and a special wire run from the battery to the CDI to power it up. The mere motion of me pushing the button on my 600R would not generate enought electricty to power the 600R CDI becuase it has a higher starting threshold before it permits spark. This is probbaly for safety as you dont want the bike starting if you merely lean on the starter.

5. So becuase estarting was the goal with my bike I worked out that the 650L CDI was the final part of the picture - I fitted one to my 600R and it ran!!!


Update to April 2007 and I suspect the 650L CDI restricts power - substantially.

So we are now all on a quest to rig up a 600R CDI to a 650L and ensure estart works.

I did not fit 650L stator or flwyheel as they simply will not work on the 600R engine. The flwyheel has different markers and many other things that stop a simple swap from occuring.

My goal is to rewind the pulsar coil and the exciter coil so that when I pus h the buttoin the electricity that is generated is enough to release a spark to the 600R CDI.

Remember CDI - Capacitor (ie storage) Discharge - fires. So the stock 600R CDI does not build enough charge by using the electric starter as the estarter turns the motor over slower than the kick starter does.

Can this hurdle be overcome?

You betcha!!!

Stay toooned.


You said the 600r CDI could not build enough charge due to the starter engaging and not turning over fast enough ... is it possible that the starter just has too much draw on the system when engaged and if you ran a small secondary battery independent of the main system to power just your CDI would it be enough to light it off ?:excuseme: .... just thought I'd throw that out there ... You guys are quite innovative and resourceful on here keep up the good work :applause:

  • MartinDKtm

Posted April 29, 2007 - 09:01 AM

#32

Is it possible that the Cdi needs a negative input to make a spark? I did a tune up on a old 250 big red and it did not make any spark. Turned out that a wire going on the transmission up to the Cdi was unconnected. Once started the Cdi does not need to be grounded but must it be at start-up to have a spark. Could be something similar??

Martin

  • suharianu

Posted April 30, 2007 - 02:04 AM

#33

I dont know what is the relative position of the pickup in reference to crank(650l)
this will greatly throw your spark timing off and affect power

  • XR650L_Dave

Posted April 30, 2007 - 08:04 AM

#34

I dont know what is the relative position of the pickup in reference to crank(650l)
this will greatly throw your spark timing off and affect power


The XR650L and the XR600R are *almost* twins.

Have not verified this is exactly the same, but honda changed very little between the 2 engines.

Dave

  • rmhrc630

Posted April 30, 2007 - 01:41 PM

#35

The XR650L and the XR600R are *almost* twins.

Have not verified this is exactly the same, but honda changed very little between the 2 engines.

Dave



This is a very important issue actually. The 650L and 600R differ greatly in their electrics - have a look where the pulsar coil is located on both - the 600R is down by the right hand side and the 650L i htink is located down near the stator...

  • MindBlower

Posted April 30, 2007 - 05:58 PM

#36

The CDI box for an XR600 will not work on an XR650L. The two bikes have entirely different elevtrical/ignition systems. The 650L's is entirely DC coming from the voltage rectifier/regulator. The XR600R does not.

In my experience with both bikes, They have the same exact rev limiting. Both bikes will not go any faster down a steep hill in third gear with the throtle pinned. Same 15/45 sprockets on both.

The XR600R CDI box will work on an XR400. Some people have put an XR250 CDI box on their 400's for an additional 2500rpm, but experience valve float and quick engine wear. Also, some people have put an XR400R CDI box on their XR600R's for the same puropose, and gotten the same result.

The XR400's CDI has a rev limiter at 9500RPM.

The XR600R's CDI has a rev limiter at about 7500rpm

The XR650L's CDI has a rev limiter at about 7500rpm

The XR650R's CDI has a rev limiter at about 8200rpm

The XR250's CDI has a rev limiter at 12,000rpm.


Do you know what I should use to convert my 85 350R to CDI?

  • XR650L_Dave

Posted May 01, 2007 - 08:26 AM

#37

This is a very important issue actually. The 650L and 600R differ greatly in their electrics - have a look where the pulsar coil is located on both - the 600R is down by the right hand side and the 650L i htink is located down near the stator...


XRL has the timing pickup on the right, cable goes in on the front right.

Dave

  • rmhrc630

Posted May 01, 2007 - 02:17 PM

#38

XRL has the timing pickup on the right, cable goes in on the front right.

Dave



Ah OK maybe then it's the exciter coil - as in the 650L does not actually have one - cos the CDI is powered off the battery

  • cleonard

Posted May 01, 2007 - 07:54 PM

#39

I don't see why you couldn't run a XR600 CDI, but it will take a lot of changes. First you will need a XR600 stator. I have held both a XR600 and a XR650L stator but not at the same time. If I remember correctly they are more or less the same size. You need the XR600 stator because it has the high voltage exciter coil that powers the CDI. If a XR600 stator will not mechanically fit, you can forget this idea. That exciter coil puts out over 100 volts when the engine is running. About 60 or so volts is needed to produce a spark good enough to start the engine. A stock XR600 stator might not have enough of a lighting coil to power the headlight and recharge the battery. A high output stator would be a good idea.

The pulse coil on the right side of the crankcase is a different part number between the two bikes. It might just be a different connector, or it might have different electrical characteristics.

The ignition coil is the same part number between the 600 and the 650L. No worries here.

There is a lot of wiring harness hacking that would need to be done in order to get this to work. The 650L regulator would have to go and be replaced with a dual sport kit type DC regulator. The connectors on the XR600 CDI are pretty specialized. The easiest way to get one would be to get an entire XR600 wiring harness and use what you will need to connect everything.

  • cleonard

Posted May 01, 2007 - 08:00 PM

#40

Do you know what I should use to convert my 85 350R to CDI?


Your 85 XR350R already has the same style CDI as the XR600. I'm pretty sure it has the same connectors as the XR250, XR400, XR500, and XR600.





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